Talk:Antisemitism/Archive 8

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I removed " In America the term "Anti-Semetic" is increacingly seen as hate speach against non jews because of the principles of religious and ethnic equality supported in the U.S. Constitution. It sugests an "us and them" form of thinking which it's self promugates the memetics of group resentment.

There is no similarly inflamatory term for anti -Irish or anti-white because the term it's self is so uniquly devicive.

A proper semantic representation is simply ""racist"" rather than "anti-semetic". Anti-Semetic also sugests hatred of those disagreeing on valid points with Israeli policy of ethnic opression of non-jews --a policy which is inconsistant with the Torah and which appears to cause violence in the region."

Those paragraphs lack proper spelling, grammar and NPOV. Their author should rephrase them and add them back. David.Monniaux 06:09, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Here is a mainstream Jewish view, and it exists despite the claims of Danny's left-wing academics. RK 03:46, Nov 6, 2003 (UTC)

How many times have you heard "I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm just anti-Zionist?" But to be anti-Zionist is, by definition, to be anti-Semitic. Zionism is nothing more than a belief that Israel has the right to exist as a homeland for Jews. It says nothing about the policies or programs of the state, merely that it has a right to exist. There are left-wing Zionists and right-wing Zionists-and many in between. Some Zionists are harsh critics of Israeli policies; others are supportive. But the term "Zionist" connotes nothing more than the right of Israel to exist; anti-Zionist means that Israel, regardless of its leaders, policies, or other aspects of how its society is run, has no right to exist.
To say that Jews alone don't have a right to self-determination in a part of their historic homeland is clearly anti-Semitic, despite the effort to hide the bigotry behind a supposed political term....It is a sign of bigotry when people try to use code words to "explain" away their defamation of a group. Whites opposed to the civil rights movement knew it was "politically incorrect" to say they were anti-black, so they used code words such as "anti-busing." Right-wing anti-Semites who want to maintain the fiction that they are not bigoted use code words such as "international bankers" to defame Jews. The word "anti-Zionist" is of the same mold in the lexicon of the left, and it should fool no one. Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.
Further evidence of this anti-Semitism is the penchant among self-proclaimed anti-Zionists to take language associated with the Holocaust and twist it around to label Israelis as Nazis and Israeli leaders as Hitler. No unbiased person could use terminology associated with the mass murder of nearly six million Jews and countless others (including Communists, gays, anti-Nazis, Roma, and Jehovah's Witnesses), many in purposely-built execution chambers, and suggest that the Israelis were engaged in a similar enterprise. And even if some anti-Zionists refuse to recognize either the history or the complexities of the conflict, why do they use the "Nazi" nomenclature to complain only about Israel? Why not use it to describe Rwanda, for example? The answer is simple: Jews are in the equation, so a different standard applies. Likewise no one on the left would have the temerity to claim that the worst excesses of corporate America are comparable to the horrors of the Middle Passage. Such a comparison would be understood to be both gross overstatement and an immoral diminishing of the terror of genocide-especially so if a targeted corporation were run by an African American. So why the almost gleeful comparison of Israelis to Nazis? Don't know? See Bigotry 101.
These are probably valid points. So why not have a section which says "The views of most Jewish denominations is such and such; the view of non-denominational Jewish groups is such and such." This formulation would preserve neutral point of view, while avoiding stating these views as objective facts. JeMa 20:01, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)
The reason Israelis are treated to a double-standard in this regard is because Rwandan mass murderers don't go around exploiting a claim to victimhood to finance their genocidal campaigns and to silence all criticism thereof.
To me, personally, in my own biased and bigoted opinion, this article by AJC is totally CENSORED!. If Jews do care about their victimhood, what should they do? As a truly blood-blood racist, I would say that Jews have to care about others as well. Last time I checked, Nazis are no longer the largest party in Germany. In fact, they are gone. So the Jewish Holocaust will probably not of a problem in the near future. I don't see 6 million Jewish naked dead bodies on my back yard to be incinerated today.
But I still see other people being discriminated around the world. Arabians, Kurds, Sudanese, Rwandans, Native Americans ... And how much did the Israeli government and Jews in the US do to them? Almost nothing. Did Ariel Sharon ever ask the UN to send Israeli peace keepers to elsewhere to help other peoples? No. They only care about their own Holocaust. They want us to remember their own private Holocaust, not the Holocaust shared by Gypsies, Poles, gays and many others as well. Do they know Poland also had lost 6 million during the war (3 million Poles and 3 million Polish Jews)?
I think Jews have every right to settle in any part of the world. They just have to pay for the land. I am a Chinese living in Taiwan. I don't mind if they have sort of a Taipeism. I mean they can buy lands in Taipei City and build their homes and synagogues with as many sets of kitchens as possible. They just could not send troops to my crazy little town and force us to migrate into the Pacific Ocean. This is not the Old West. We are not American Indians. I think so are the Arabs.
No wonder Jews are being hated all around the world during the past two thousand years. Bad attitudes! How many Jews were saved by others during the WW2? I know the State of Israel did issue many of them medals. But that's not enough. Maybe Ariel Sharon should put down his butcher knife and to start each day for the rest of his bloody life with a thank you. As a Chinese whose family had been screwed up badly during that same world war, I'd rather see someone to stop monopolizing their victimhood and to say thank you loudly and openly to those who ever helped them in the past. -- Toytoy
Um, that's all very interesting, but perhaps you've lost sight of the fact that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a political discussion forum? We're just here to document anti-semitism (among many, many other potential article topics), not to fix the problem or appraise its importance relative to other issues. Jdavidb 16:51, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Discussion on whether anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism, while fascinating, is better located at anti-Zionism, because anti-Zionism (with a ~100 year history) is a smaller, more focused topic than anti-Semitism. The subject is already covered in the article on anti-Zionism:

JeMa - please note that the content you wish to re-add to this article has been preserved in full at anti-Zionism. I ask that you consider where it is best located. Martin 20:41, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Thank you for mentioning this. JeMa 20:01, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)

I removed the following, because it is a strawman attack on Jews: "many anti-globalization people consider themselves anti-Isreali state, which doesn't necessarily make them anti-Semite." RK 01:32, Nov 19, 2003 (UTC)

It is a common trend among anti-Semites to claim that "The Jews brand all criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic." The problem is that the claim is a total fiction. No mainstream Jewish group hold such a position. In fact, on numerous occasions many Jewish groups themselves have publicly criticised the policies of different Israeli governments. Public statements by leaders of many Jewish groups have been made which clearly state that disagreement with Israel is not, of itself anti-Semitic. The only people making such claims are those who have a hatred of Israel and or Jews. Even the Anti-Defamation League, a vigorously pro-Jewish and pro-Zionist organization, has publicly stated that criticism of Israel is not, if of itself, anti-Semitism. RK 01:27, Nov 19, 2003 (UTC)

"Criticism of particular Israeli actions or policies in and of itself does not constitute anti-Semitism. Certainly the sovereign State of Israel can be legitimately criticized just like any other country in the world. However, it is undeniable that there are those whose criticism of Israel or of "Zionism" is used to mask anti-Semitism." (Anti-Defamation League website.)

In fact, the ADL itself publicly and strongly criticised the Knesset (Parliament) of the State of Israel for one its bills vis-a-vis the crisis with the Palestinians. So let's stop the strawman claims.

"A recent survey in Europe revealed that a very large proportion of Europeans believed that the Jewish state was the largest threat to world peace; Jewish groups expressed shock and regret at these results, likening them to the same statements that were made by Nazi Germany before the Holocaust."
  1. How can you liken something to something else that is the same?
  2. Irrespective of argument #1: isn't likening the statement that Israel is a threat to peace with the Nazi statements fallacious? IIRC Nazis weren't persecuting Jews because they thought that Jews were a threat to peace. But rather because they thought that Jews were a threat to their aspirations for Power and their braindead ideas of Aryanism, etc. --snoyes 01:51, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The 'mainstream Jewish view' above strikes me as a great example of Zionism masquerading as a struggle against bias. Antisemitism is despicable; questioning the premises of a racially and religiously biased state is overdue. David K 10:45, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)