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A second page (!) of archives from Talk:Christopher Columbus .
03:16, 18 October 2005 (UTC)03:16, 18 October 2005 (UTC)03:16, 18 October 2005 (UTC)03:16, 18 October 2005 (UTC)~`
Someone asked, "If he was a slaver, why would he destroy his stock?"
Well, it was cheaper to work a slave to death and buy a new one than to feed and maintain the slave. Lir 01:14 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)
First of all, Lir, it took me three minutes according to Wikipedia's clock (based on my above sig and the one in this paragraph) to find a secondary source (I admit, not great, but proves you did make up a baseless claim) that utilizes direct quotes from Jacob Cain Barrett and other sources to prove what you are claiming. I did a google search for "Hitler" and "Native American" and it was the seventeenth result. Here it is 1 (you have to scroll down a bit). Tokerboy 01:20 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)
In 1991, the sociologist Ward Churchill and other leaders of the American Indian Movement disrupted the Columbus Day parade in Denver Colorado. They were arrested, but argued that theirs was a legal action against a celebration of genocide. Churchill published a brief in support of a motion to dismiss the charges as an essay in his edited volume, Indians Are Us, in which he argues that as Viceroy (the crown's representative) and governor of the Caribbean Islands, and the Mainland of America, Columbus was (according to current international law) directly responsible for genocide, and that he has served as a model for genocide against Native Americans since.
I find these claims convincing. I also agree with remarks made earlier that the way Columbus has been represented in the US has more to do with 19th century politics than with 16th century realities.
I agree with others above that Hitler is a meaningless source. There is enough good scholarship in the 15th and 16th centuries to support these claims. I think it is important that the article develop them in a non-hystirical way. One way to do this as others have suggested is somehow to distinguish between the real Columbus and what we know he did, from the mythologization of Columbus in the late 19th century in the US and elsewhere.
As far as I am concerned there should be no debate at all on the fact that Columbus took slaves and encouraged genocide. The only question in my mind is, how much of the historical context for these actions is needed in an encyclopeida article, and where in the article should these aspects of his career be discussed. Slrubenstein
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I concur. I believe the article should mostly focus on his biography with further discussion going under an existing or to-be-made article on the Amerindian Holocaust. I also think this page should be named properly.Lir 01:42 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)
How about:
Tokerboy, independent of your comment I put some of this information in the article -- please review it, it could use some editing and maybe expansion. As for the "Genocide" issue, Churchill and others do point out that many victims of the concentration camps died of starvation and diseas; this does not exclude those deaths from the final tally of victims of genocide since the concentration camps deliberatly created conditions that led to death by disease and malnutrition. I believe the same argument could be made about Columbus (and other examples of colonial conquest); in the early stages when the indigenous population is large and does not represent a market for European goods, you often find the creation of work-camps (or plantations) with very high death-rates, and it is deliberate calculus because labor is so easily replacable, a pantation manager can make more money working people to death (this calculus changes over time as European countries start exporting manufactured goods to their colonies and seek larger markets, and as a local infrastructure develops, and as scarcity of labor makes life more valuable). Churchil et. al. also make the argument (and it seems well-supported) that according to UN conventions neither Hitler nor Columbus need not even have explicity ordered the deaths, let alone directly executed people, to be held legally accountable for genocide. Slrubenstein
Jared Diamond puts the numbers for disease-related casualties at 95-98% in Guns, Germs and Steel. I don't think the Spaniards can really be held responsible for disease. Yes, they brought it, but they didn't know what it was, and the deaths of the natives were completely baffling to them. Debatable whether the spanish would have lost - they did have weapons and armor vastly superior to the natives. Pizarro and a handful of men decimated an Inca army merely by superioriy of armament and use of cavalry. Anyway, I don't think that most of the deaths can be laid at Columbus' door. I also don't think this means he wasn't an evil murdering imperialist, but that's different than genocide. While I'm at it, the passage near the end (How responsible was columbus) seems to me to be totally whacky - I don't think anyone is blaming Columbus because of WHAT he did, the simple act of stumbling across the New World, but rather HOW he did it. He arrived and proceeded with enslavement, colonization, theft of gold and land, population transfer and forced conversion. So... I don't see the point of the last bit. No one is saying that without Columbus, colonization of the West would not have happened. But he's still a symbol of the brutality of that colonization, and this is why people protest him. Graft
I cut phrase "intended to support Columbus' conquest of the Americas", as it seems very dubious to me. Columbus and the Spanish didn't even know they'd reached the Americas yet, they still thought they'd arrived at some islands in Asia. Infrogmation 02:37 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)
Did Columbus sell and profit from the 300 slaves he shipped over to Spain, as the introduction claims, or did he simply hand them over to the Spanish crown which had financed his trip? AxelBoldt 02:39 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)
This was removed by an anonymous user. It is POV but I would like to still have this info in the intro while adhering to NPOV. Unless somebody beats me to it I will work on this later (as this requires some research on my part. My primary school taught that Columbus was a saint and then in high school I was told he was a rapist murderer. I don't buy either extreme.). --mav
Why was "Columbus began shortly thereafter to enslave them. " removed from the First Voyage section? It is my understanding that Columbus did in fact force the natives to work for him. Perhaps "Columbus shortly thereafter began to force some of the natives to work for him." would be better? --mav
There aren't any opinions there. Its fact. Lir 04:16 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)
This could be interpreted in more than one way: 1) the Arawak, as a race of people, were peaceful and friendly. This strikes me as "noble savage" thinking and is almost surely wrong. I can not imagine characterizing an entire race of people as "friendly"--surely, there were some mean Arawak. On the Carib page, it says that the Caribs and the Arawak were warring. 2) The Arawak treated the spanish peacefully and friendlily (?!). If so, we should make this clear. DanKeshet
There's some confusion about Las Casas that needs to be cleared up, relating to Columbus. First, his date of birth is variously given at 1474, 1484 or 1490. I have some sources saying he sailed with Columbus on his third voyage, in 1498. Others say he was still in school then (and some would have him at 14 years of age at that point, hardly the sort to be traipsing off to the New World). Others say he sailed in 1502 with the conquistador Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo to Hispaniola. In the article we have him conducting a census in 1496. Anyone got some good digs on this? Graft 17:06 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)
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I'm taking out the "some say slaves" in the opening paragraph. There is really no doubt about the fact that he enslaved at least some Indians and sold many, thereby making him a slave trader. I typed "Christopher Columbus" into google and checked the first forty results, and stopped as the results started being geared primarily towards kids. Out of the forty results, not one denied his involvement in the slave trade. Most glossed over it by saying he was a trader but not specifying (or specifying that he traded "in such commodities as gold" or something to that effect) what he traded. Many also claimed he "took," "captured" or "brought back" Indians to the New World without using the word "slavery." Of the sources that mention it specifically, not a single one denies that he did enslave Indians and sell many of them. This did include quite a few sites which were pro-Columbus, usually focusing on combatting the politically correct philosophy of denigrating Columbus Day. Even these sites either didn't mention slavery or glossed it over using words like "took" or "captured". The closest thing I found to a denial was here, where it says his involvement in slavery was brief and unsuccesful without denying that he did bring slaves from the New World to the Old, and doesn't cite any sources for that particular section. This appears to be the Encylopedia Encarta article, which, way down near the bottom, claims that he did take slaves without mentioning any controversy (the same article does discuss other factual controversies, such as where he landed and his nationality). Because of this, I am removing the "some say" because there does not seem to be any ambiguity about this whatsoever--even the sites that would, if they could, deny his involvement in the slave trade do not do so. It is undisputed fact. Tokerboy 18:12 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)
I've just finished reading a lengthy excerpt from Columbus's log of his first voyage across the Atlantic, and my impression is that Columbus was seeking glory for himself by finding another route to "the Indies". Upon landing in the Caribbean, he found the inhabitants friendly and primitive. He figured:
I don't think his original motive was to find slaves. But for those of us who oppose slavery, there's no little or no doubt that he "brought back" a whole lot of slaves later on. --Ed Poor
Columbus cannot be guilty of anything under the UN Genocide convention simply because it did not exist then. We don't even need to mention the convention in an article on Columbus -- we can just say "his actions would constitute genocide under current international law." Reader can refer to the genocide article if they want to know the content and sources of that law (i.e. the UN Genocide convention). But I'm afraid to say under international law as it existed then, his actions may well have been perfectly legal...
It can be said there was no way the native peoples could have resisted the Europeans - the Europeans had a decisive advantage because of their diseases. Due to their late settlement of the continents and lack of domesticated animals, the native Americans lacked any immunity to most Old World diseases, which meant a catastrophic population collapse (definitely higher than 50%, and perhaps more than 90%) in the first generations following contact. Deaths on a similar scale will necessarily follow *any* extensive contact between the hemispheres.
It wasn't impossible. This is like saying we should excuse Tomas de Torquemada because his attitudes were "common at the time" - same for Nazis in Germany.
Don't forget that his name wasn't Columbus... Lir 12:58 Oct 26, 2002 (UTC)
But all the same they never did change his name to Robert... Lir
Yes, im trying to start with the less controversial topics. Lir 18:00 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)
<sarcasm> oh good!</sarcasm>
--- Paul Melville Austin
<tangent>Hey, everybody, that reminds me: I saw Shakespeare In Love this weekend on DVD. It was excellent!</tangent> --Ed Poor
Someone made what was identified as a "minor edit" that turned out to be a substantial deletion of material. I reverted to the previous version. Feel free to make minor edits without explanation. Feel free to add significant material, too. Also feel free to edit the article, or even make cuts, if it leads to a more accurate and NPOV article -- but if you change what someone else put in, or cut it, please provide an explanation. And please be selective in your cuts, when so many others have worked on this. Slrubenstein
I deleted this quote:
I have no objection at ll to including it in the article (although it seems redundant); BUT the date of the journal entry should be provided, and the quote belongs in the body of the text, in its proper context -- not in the introduction. Slrubenstein
Well, the debate over whether Columbus was a bad guy is now going on over in Arawak so I added it here just in case somebody tried to "purify" the opening paragraph that they would see, 'oh look he wrote a diary!' but no, it doesnt belong in the first paragraph
So, regarding that bit in the opening paragraph that AxelBoldt just changed... is that even true? Did Columbus earn profits from any of his activities, or did it all go straight to his creditors (i.e., the Spanish Crown)? I think the latter is more likely, unless someone can provide a good link to the contrary... I'm making appropriate edits. Graft
Obviously, you don't know whether the money went to repay the creditors. Why then do you edit the article as if that were fact? Reverting. AxelBoldt 02:53 Nov 8, 2002 (UTC)
My understanding is Columbus earned profits. If he didn't Im curious why because he was promised a fortune. The Crown itself offered him a fortune. Lir 04:37 Nov 8, 2002 (UTC)
Where in his diary? He was supposed to be receiving a percentage Lir 18:41 Nov 8, 2002 (UTC)
Okay, here is a letter to F&I where CC discusses the disposition of gold. It doesn't state things directly, but from it you can learn that only a portion would go to F&I, so some of it would presumably fall into the control of Columbus. Also this letter to a Spanish lord is worth reading, gives some sense of the way Columbus thinks, as does his diary. Anyway, I am not sure whether the presentation of him as rapaciously acquiring gold is justified (although I will retract my previous bit about him primarily wanting to pay back creditors given the letter to Ferdinand and Isabella) ... I think his motivations were more of a religious and imperialist nature. Graft
A clarification of the economics: On his first voyage, Columbus set out hoping to return with his ships loaded with gold and spices, because that was the most profitable thing you could fill ships with at the time. Some spices could be worth their weight in gold in Europe. Slaves were taken as a reluctant 3rd choice. Gold & spices get more money per pound, you don't have to worry about feeding your gold & spices, a third to half of it doesn't tend to die and become useless on the voyage back. Columbus's initial goal was gold and spices, not because Columbus had anything against the institution of slavery (clearly he didn't), but because he hoped to get even richer than he could with the slave trade. -- Infrogmation
Columbus also believed the journey to India was only a few days, if so, that would have made a superb slave-trading route.Lir 20:09 Nov 10, 2002 (UTC)
Re: the last addition, CC was made Admiral of the High Seas and governor of all lands he discovered BEFORE he began his journey, as he records in his diary while en route there for the first time... quoted:
Moving the info to the appropriate place... Graft