Talk:Earl of Richmond

It's not very clear what's going on here. The title "Earl of Richmond" refers to Richmond in Yorkshire. The title "Duke of Richmond" refers to Richmond in Surrey. Perhaps worth adding a note to this effect.

The changes made by User:ScapegoatVandal don't mesh with our usual sources on the peerage dignity Earl of Richmond, so I've reverted to the earlier version. See [1]. Mackensen (talk) 13:38, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How is the link I gave wrong and yours so much better? Can you read French?
I can read a little French, not much. I prefer the link I posted because the author worked from sources on the British peerage, which is what this page is about. Mackensen (talk) 14:16, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
But the link I posted even had coats of arms and you don't think that is good enough knowledge on the issue?
The differences aren't that major, are they?One gives the husband of Constance of Brittany, the other gives Constance herself. That's the only notable difference that I saw. The Earls of Richmond are not normally called "Earls of Richmondshire," so I'm not sure how that fits in. The intro introduced by ScapegoatVandal (umm...you might want to change your user name - calling yourself a "vandal" is bound to make people think worse of you, even in spite of themselves, as a visceral reaction to the name) seems wrong - the raising of the title to a dukedom had nothing to do, so far as I am aware, with the incorporation of Brittany into France - at the time that happened, the Duke of Brittany had not been Earl of Richmond for more than a hundred years. john k 15:14, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Oh yeah I see about the confusion between Richmond and Richmondshire, although the Duke of York is technically the Lord of Yorkshire. The county town is the residential title, with the feudal underlings below them in the shire country. At least, this was the way it had been structured in those times. Perhaps I got a mixup over the annexation of Brittany. It was the other way around. Brittany was joined to the French Throne because its English holdings did not provide any buoyancy since the time they were given away by order of the English Crown. My mistake, however the connections to the rulers of Brittany did not vanish with this change. After all, things returned more in that direction with Charles Lennox the first Duke of Richmond and Lennox having a Breton mother. ScapegoatVandal 15:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't think it necessarily has to do with the County town or feudal underlings. In the middle ages some comital titles derived from the county name (Kent, Suffolk, Norfolk, Surrey, Cornwall), and others derived from the county town (Shrewsbury, Lincoln, York, Lancaster, Leicester). It just depended. I have no idea what you mean about "technically the lord of Yorkshire." Since the Conquest, British noble titles have never implied direct control over the county which they are named for. The earls did get a certain amount of the taxes collected for that county (I don't remember the term for this, but it was some number of pennies, or possibly a half-penny), but the area was not administered by them unless it was a palatine county, like Chester, Durham (which was ruled by the Bishop), Lancashire, and a few others, as well as the marcher areas in Wales and the western Midlands (and perhaps Northumberland, as well). But there was certainly no "official lord" of Yorkshire, and, indeed, the Duke of York was weak in Yorkshire during the Wars of the Roses - his area of strength was the south. In terms of Brittany being joined to France, I think you really have no idea what you are talking about. The Dukes of Brittany lost their English titles in 1399. In 1492, the Duchess of Brittany married the King of France. When they failed to produce an heir and he died, she married his successor, Louis XII. They had a daughter, Claude, who succeeded her mother as duchess in 1514. She married Louis's heir, Francis of Angouleme, who became Francis I of France. Francis incorporated Brittany into France in 1524 in order to centralize his control of France. It had nothing to do with the long defunct English holdings. In terms of the first Lennox Duke of Richmond's Breton mother, it is possible that this Breton history was being recalled by Charles's choice of title for his bastard, but that doesn't have any real meaning, it's just an interesting fact. john k 04:19, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, there has always been a top-down relationship between the peerage and the commoners. The nobility would command respect and loyalty far greater from the commoners than the king could muster, until the late middle ages eroded their power with monarchical absolutism. I used the Yorkist title as a comparison, but perhaps the Nevilles of Westmorland or Percys of Northumberland would have been better choices for you to see what I meant. As for the Breton holdings in England and the return of Brittany to France, I already knew about what you've just said. It is all detailed here at Wikipedia and elsewhere online. No need to get haughty with me sir, I am not looking for an argument. Although English and French antagonisms had broken the links several times, reconnection had been attempted throughout the Hundred Years' War and after. What you fail to realise however it seems by your calling me ignorant, is that the Breton power structure had also little room for independence because of the French king's expansion. There was little to gain from the avoidance of union, since there were no independent sources of income for the ruling people in Brittany. Their Norman Conquest holdings weren't providing them any distance from relying on the closest power next to them, which brought the "voluntary" marriage with the French Crown. Yes, I have thought the same of King Charlie's bastard issue. It still doesn't erase the jist of what I have said here. Perhaps you don't see the meaning of my points with the way I describe them, but I'm not bullshitting anybody here. The Breton inheritance is still present in Great Britain. Besides the Duke of Richmond, there is also the Duke of Norfolk and other bastards of the House of Stuart(and legit Stewarts of lower birth) with these origins and might I remind you they also have been the most Catholic of all British lordly families. This isn't going away any time soon. It would be in error to say that the Nevilles and Percys just disappeared after their power was broken, or that the old Anglo-French connection evaporated because of Robespierre, Bonaparte and King George III's decision to renounce his claim. The Jacobites continued their claim, but it was not only them. My family were/are Anglo-French gentry; little else. ScapegoatVandal 06:06, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In addition, Richmond had become a royal treasure since the Tudors' rise to power. There was little chance of the land getting back to the Breton House. Orientation changed. ScapegoatVandal 12:50, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Okay, fair enough - I will hold to the fact that the way you made your comments made it seem like you were talking nonsense. So, before I misunderstand you again, are you saying that the Dukes of Norfolk are bastard Stuarts? Or that any of the bastard Stuart families is Catholic? And what is the connection of the Dukes of Norfolk, Grafton, Saint Albans, and Buccleuch to Brittany? At any rate, your point about the importance of the Richmond titles to Anne's ultimate marriage to Charles VIII seems questionable, or at least exaggerated. The reason for the marriage derive out of the extinction of the Breton ducal house on the death of Duke Francis and the fact that the French had the power to force the marriage on the Breton rulers. I've no idea how this would have been different in case of the Dukes of Brittany not losing their English lands and titles. As it was, there was a strong English vested interest in maintaining the independence of Brittany. john k 14:37, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The Howard (family) is already written down on the Wiki as being the second family of England and social leader of Catholics, beside their ancestry originally of the FitzAlan clan that produced the Stuarts as well. The Stuarts(FitzFlaald etc) came anciently from Brittany. Also, Richmondshire during the Pilgrimage of Grace was filled with Catholics(from where came Baron Baltimore to Maryland), although one of the 3rd creation Dukes protested Empancipation(I know the Gordons aren't Catholic). Of course, not ALL Stuarts were Catholics. Many converted to keep their power(despite Fawkes plotting against Stuart, etc) or were raised that way to be protected, like Queen Mary and Queen Anne. England could have gotten Brittany a suitable spouse, if they really had the resources to protect the duchy. Brittany has always vacillated between both kingdoms anyways, with the Wars of the Roses not providing any help to Brittany. France always blocked English efforts to control English soil on the Continent. Both of what you said about dynastic inheritance and what I said are equally relevant. I never said they were mutually exclusive. ScapegoatVandal 15:11, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I had forgotten about the FitzAlan's having a common male ancestor with the Stewarts. That said, the Howards are not FitzAlan's - the 4th Duke of Norfolk married the daughter of the last FitzAlan Earl of Arundel. The Howard family has different origins. At any rate, I am highly doubtful that the purported Breton origins of the Stuart/FitzAlan clan had much of anything to do with anything. Obviously, the English did not have the resources to protect the duchy, and neither did Maximilian in Brussels, despite the fact that Maximilian wanted to marry Anne, and neither of them wanted Brittany going to the French. But I don't see what that has to do with anything. Beyond that, I am no longer sure what your argument is here. john k 17:55, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The argument deteriorated into you flouting knowledge and me trying to get you to see that I know things too, whether you happen to see the point of that or not. Do you remember the first dispute? It was about the structure of the article, which I believe could be fused together from Mackensen's and my own happy-go-lucky websites that are equally useful. ScapegoatVandal 18:09, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to "flout" knowledge - you seemed to be saying things that didn't make sense to me. At any rate, I would suggest that for the list of earlier earls, Complete Peerage would be comprehensive...we could just lie back and rely on that, eh? john k 17:05, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)