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Talk:New Imperialism/Linking to the alternative version from the top of the article
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Picking up with beginning of a new controversy.
An anonymous contributer mistakenly put this in the article, when it should be here on the talk page:
For the moment, there are no articles on Curtis and Coupland, so the links are not especially helpful -- but let's hope that will change. In any event, I hope this contributor, or others, will find ways to incorporate the views of these historians into the article. I am sure the contributor has read the talk pages before joining in, so s/he knows that I and others have called for more discussion of debate among historians (or political scientists) in the article. In the meantime, if you are not yet ready to make a substantive contribution to the article (anonymous person), I think your purposes would be better served if at the bottom of the article you said "see x and y for alternative views," and list specific books or articles by these two scholars. In any event the article should have a bibliography... Slrubenstein
Someone - Slrubenstein - suggested only mentioning the Beit Professors here, mistakenly supposing that that was a comment on the main article. However it was intended as a suggestion of alternatives for readers who did not have a largely economic focus. As such, it seemed necessary to provide an alternative suggestion early on, and the only "comment" was a hint about the nature of that focus. PML.
I -- Slrubenstein -- suggested in the paragraph above that PML place the following at the bottom rather than the top of the article:
I also suggested that PML actually work these views into the body of the article. I stand by these suggestions. Slrubenstein
With all due respect, "We do not begin each article by stating that it is not yet complete, true though this necesarrily is", is precisely why I did not initially adopt that approach. I did so just there in order to clarify that the introductory part comprised hints for wider research and not comments on the main material, since that seemed to be the main outstanding objection. I stand by my view that readers should be steered right early on - a footnote is not suitable for people with a surfing approach. I fully appreciate that other views should be incorporated rather than referred to or linked - subject to space constraints etc. - but again with all due respect, the material is not currently amenable to that since it has not yet been webbed (well, the Encyclopaedia Britannica has some stuff, but that is restricted). It seemed and still seems appropriate to provide as much as is currently available, rather than waiting for some ultimate perfection.
Now, can we find some approach that does reconcile these requirements? PML.
go to the bottom, where it says See also: and do it there Vera Cruz
No, that does not reconcile the requirements. That imitates a textbook but fails to deliver the requirements of this medium; a surfer cannot use that to direct his course. It is as bad as giving someone spaghetti and telling him it is just the same as the fettucine he asked for, ignoring the possibility that there are real reasons quite apart from flavour and nutritional value. (That's a real case.)
So the question remains, how do we deliver surfers what they need on entry, without interfering with the flow of the material proper for those that do want it? I had supposed that spelling out the reasons would serve - like telling the waitress that I have difficulty eating spaghetti without splashing - only to find that the critics changed their objection to a comment to an objection to the digression. So, how to make this narrow - indeed, somewhat selective - material work as an entry to a wider field rather than what it presently is, a restriction of agenda? PML.
is there something you want to add to the first paragraph? A (See also) is hardly useful there. Vera Cruz
To take that position is to rule out any interim assistance. Pending being able to do it right, what do we do? Furthermore, even doing it right would involve some introductory material. My own feeling was that this whole piece was misguided by adopting a particular and possibly subjective view of historical mechanisms, but that the cure would involve distinct pieces rather than getting forever longer.
I want to refer people wider, pending writing something else and merely linking wider, but either way I want a usable entry point that does not get in the way while still telling people what they are getting early on - the principle of newspaper prose style, which is acknowledgedly stylistically poor prose (except in the hands of a master). So, how? Saying "don't" is no answer, and neither is "do nothing now". PML.
That does not address the issue of pending. I have already acknowledged the desirable end; I have also been pointing out, and other people have been steadfastly ignoring, the need for something provisional. I started in by trying to provide that, and what is more a fuller answer would not resolve the objection made to my provisional attempts - the objection was to anything before the main material. What can be done in those areas? So far, all attempts have been undercut - in effect if not in intent amounting to "do nothing now".
To state correctly that one is not recommending "do nothing" is bait and switch. The answer "do nothing now" is a non-answer - and people are just not seeing that "now".
By the way, any journalist who jumped in writing before he had access to his sources would be no journalist at all. This week, and possibly all this month, all I can do is something provisional. Unless someone can get hold of a copy of "Civitas Dei" (the other one) and do the work before I do... PML.
Well, I've tracked down the two mysterious gentlemen. First:
Lionel Curtis (1872-1955): town clerk of Johannesburg (1902); Acting Colonial Secretary to organize municipal government in Transvaal (1904-06); Beit Lecturer in Colonial History, Oxford University (1911); Fellow, All Souls College (1921); founder, Royal Institute of International Affairs (1919). He gives powerfully paternalistic expression to the White Man's Burden. Some quotes (taken, for dramatic effect, entirely out of context) follow:
But he was by no means a mere jingoistic, paternalistic fool. There are subtleties, an ability to see more than John Bull saw:
If you can turn this sort of stuff into a useful contribution to an overview of the New Imperialism, PML, then I will tip my cap to you most humbly. Good luck! Tannin 11:27 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)
Sir Reginald Coupland (1884-1952): Fellow, Trinity College, Oxford; lecturer, Trinity College, Oxford; Beit Lecturer in Colonial History, Oxford University (1913-18); Beit Professor of History of the British Empire, Oxford University (1920-48); Fellow, All Souls College (1920-48); Fellow, Nuffield College (1939-50); member, Palestine Royal Commission (1936-37); member, Cripp Mission to India (1942). Publications:
Harder to find any extracts from his work, but reading between the lines of what little is available on-line, I gather that Coupland was a significant behind-the-scenes mover and shaker in the administration of the Empire, but not until long after the period of interest to this article. The list of his publications is suggestive. (Having quite an interest in the Congo Free State, I'm sure I should enjoy his Kirk on the Zambesi.) Tannin
I have some problems with the structure of the first quarter or so of the article. Currently, it goes like this:
What is the logic for the third and fourth sections? They seem to have overlapping content, and to move back and forth chronologically. Frankly, I think it is a mess. I have a suggestion -- again, I want to know what others think, and am willing to let someone else start rearragning things.
After an introduction that really introduces the article as a whole, I'd do this:
Does this make sense? Slrubenstein
No-I do not see how the ==New Imperialism== section can go before, if its part of the introduction, but must go after otherwise. I think it is quite fine early on because the reader is likely going to be wondering, "New Imperialism?" and yet is so long that it deserves a header.
The third and 4th sections are my version and 172s version-I took mine and posted it there so that people could compare the two of them and thus encourage some form of editing.
Also, is it necesary to discuss Pax Britanica and Mercantilism seperately? Vera Cruz
But are the that different in the context of New Imperialism? Each has its own page btw...
This is getting to be fun again, folks. I'm betting that the lines (that I removed because they seemed superfluous to me (as layout) but were restored as not superfluous by Vera Cruz (as guides to the reader)) actually mark places where there should be a break and a link to a separate article. Comments?
This is an unusually long article, and even though I generally dislike and doubt the value of the Wikipedian habit of breaking every article up into tiny little niblets, we should probably be looking ahead to breaking this one up after we get the writing all settled. Ortolan88 18:18 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)
There is content in this page that gets off the topic, but i see no reason to discuss this as of yet. For now, plz examine:
"This period is marked by a power vaccuum left by the crumbling Chinese, Russian and Ottoman Empires, and the rise of finance capitalism."
This over-simplistic statement removed, too POV.
Also, redundant paragraph on Pax Britannica/backround removed
I thought we were getting somewhere with this article, but now we have the return of the Death of a Thousand Cuts from Vera Cruz. What appear to be many, many changes, but who could figure them out? Italics lost, hierarchical heads ignored, half the article temporarily lost in the bit bucket, not a single summary line provided, no plot line of changes proposed here. You know, if I knew what you were up to, I might even agree with it, although I doubt it. This is bad for the Wikipedia. Ortolan88
The article is in adequate to fine shape now. Why don’t we move on to articles that need much more attention? Why don’t we move on to writing articles for the red links, like the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine, Tanganyika, or the Entente Cordiale, just to name a few.
As it is, we probably have the illuminating encyclopedia article on New Imperialism online.
The comments by Ortolan88 are absolutely, 100%, completely, wrong in stating "If you had spent half the time you've spent defending this silly idea to writing up what you already know we would be on to some other subject. I repeat. Go to work."
Frankly, I a currently unwell, busy at other work (note my delays revisiting here), away from my sources, and with limited access to download and upload facilities. This sort of provisional stuff is all I can currently do. To point out the "correct" way of proceeding is not constructive when it is not actually an option. He is perpetuating the mistake that people are not entitled to contribute what they can in areas that they can, if they cannot contribute in areas that would be ideal. It is the criticism that authors level at critics.
And frankly, if he thought I was under the impression I supposed journalists wait for full information, he mistook the point. They do not suppose that not being able to get information entitles them to make it up - not the reputable ones, anyway. I was certainly not going to quote from memory, and do not have any detail on the substance of the relevant works anyway. PML.
I think a chatroom would solve a lot of trouble. Vera Cruz
Which is more useful to somebody who has never heard of Pax Britannica or New Imperialism. (Pick one or submit your own revision)
or
On a hurried reading (I have to go to work), the former is more learned and informative, the latter communicates much more to the non-expert reader. (Defining "expert reader" as one who knows enough of this subject not to need to read the Wikipedia entry.) Don't race in to change it just yet Vera Cruz. Wait a day or so and see what other participants think. It can probably (a) be improved further and (b) gain consensus support (saving yet more edit wars) if you let it sit here in talk for a while first. Tannin
(As is obvious from my comment above, I agree wholeheartedly with Slrubenstein's very sensible suggestion about discussing changes here before implementing them.) Tannin 23:34 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)
Its so easy to get bogged in the details, and forget the obvious. See my comments on the redirect on Talk:New Imperialism (1871-1914) -Sv
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Aside from its confusing background information, the mad redirect itself was confusing. "New Imperialism 1871-1914" is confusing and redundant. That era was the one and only period known as "New Imperialism", not one era of many different eras known as "New Imperialism".
Some have called Bush's policies an era of "New Imperialism", but that's a historical allusion to another era. Realpolitik, for istanced is used today is much the same way.
I gave you guys a reason. The mad redirect is confusing and unnecessary.
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I agree with 131. Why redirect?
why pretend there is a consensus, is my question: three pages of talk? just specify the term, and leave the general term open for general use. "New" is not enough of a qualifier, especially if it refers to something OLD. thanks.-Sv
I think we should use a totally different name. Vera Cruz
the article is receiving well-deserved praise: regarding the most recent edit by AdamRetchless:
"M 04:51 Jan 9, 2003 . . AdamRetchless (wikify, remove redundancies...needs more simple editing! (but great article!))"
Vera Cruz seems to be the only person who wants to change the name. I agree that the title of the article should use the term used most often by historians. If there are other terms that have been used to describe the phenomena, thee should be redirects from those terms to this article. If there are related phenomena (e.g. mercantilism, colonialism) there should be links. These two measures will ensure that anyone who wants to learn about this topic will find the article.
On a side note, I think that any time such a valued contributor to Wikipidia as Ortolan88 is driven away from an article, people should seriously reconsider both the content and form of their interventions. Slrubenstein
Ortolan88 is constantly making these accusations against me which are totally false, the most latest being that I moved this article somewhere else...yah....I sure did.... Vera Cruz
There may be some useful content in the following paragraph, but I think it is redundant. Also, if any of this does belong in the article, it certainly belongs later, not where it was -- you do not talk about the rise of PB before the paragraph on the decline of mercantilism:
Good work, Slrubenstein.
Why does Vera Cruz want to restore that redundant version?
or
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Version b is very confusing. What economic, political, and technological developments? Why not address them in the section pertaining to the causes of New Imperialism? Wasn't the breakdown of the Concert of Europe the establishment of nation-states in Italy and Germany?
Version a tells us why Pax Britannica was possible in the first place. We can't really understand New Imperialism unless we understand why Pax Britannica was possible in the first place, right?
131.247.155.93
Paragraph B would naturally be followed by paragraphs on those changes. A discussion of Pax Britannica is for Pax Britannica, not this page. Vera Cruz
Vera Cruz, an article on New Imperialism is essentially the same as an article on the breakdown of Pax Britannica.
There is more to it than that. Vera Cruz
Vera Cruz is right! leave it with his version
Let users who have contributed to the article have some imput, such as Slrubenstein.
Vera Cruz,
Slrubenstein already explained why:
There may be some useful content in the following paragraph, but I think it is redundant. Also, if any of this does belong in the article, it certainly belongs later, not where it was -- you do not talk about the rise of PB before the paragraph on the decline of mercantilism: