This is an archive of past discussions about New Imperialism. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Talk:New Imperialism/Linking to the alternative version from the top of the article
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Ortolan88 already explained the importance of that paragraph. 172
As you can see above, Ortolan88 has not made any statements regarding this paragraph since my initial move of the text to imperialism. Vera Cruz
They're probably not online or something. They're also sick of you, with your dozens of unwanted, unacceptable "minor" edits to this article.
lol Vera Cruz
You're not the final word on this article, Vera Cruz. So far I think that Ortolan88's paragraph is essential for understanding what distinguishes this era of imperialism from others; you do as well, but you seem to want to sabotage the clarity of the article on the basis of a technicality.
Let's get Ortolan88's opinion since we have this disagreement.
So go call him or something? Why is it so essential to restate text from imperialism here, text which is not about this era, but rather a discussion of the origins of a word/phrase. Vera Cruz
the term, imperialism was used in reference to policies of the Roman Empire. In the 20th century, the term has been used to describe the policies of both the Soviet Union and the United States although analytically these differed greatly from each other...off the subect... Vera Cruz
I have a constructive proposition:
I will never edit this article again, which I started and largely wrote, if Vera Cruz stops working on it permanently. Let’s leave it to Ortolan88, Slrubenstein, Tannin, etc.
Other users: endorse this idea. I’m tired of having to obstruct the bulk of Vera Cruz’s asinine deletions.
Why should u get to work on an article and not me? Besides, Im not deleting something, Im moving it. Little difference there... Vera Cruz
No. I'm saying that I'll stop working on this article if you stop working on it. That simple.
Right, but you already worked on it and Im still waiting for my turn. Vera Cruz
Your "turn"?
Who the hell knows what you would do to this thing with your last "turn". LET'S BOTH STOP NOW! You're the person who deletes 90% of an article and calls it "minor".
I have a right to make edits to your golden prose. Vera Cruz
Wouldn't it be easier if we both stoped working on this article today, leaving it to Ortolan88, Slrubenstein, and Tannin?
Sure would. It'd be easier to just quit doing everything and sit around all day bloating in the sun. Vera Cruz
I will accept your deletion of that important paragraph (hopefully another user will restore it) if you promise that that one revert will be your last change to this article. If so, I will never touch this article again either.
Im glad to hear that you agree and I can continue to edit the rest of the article. Vera Cruz
I understood what 172 meant, he meant, "You should never edit this article because I disagree with your edits." That is childish. Vera Cruz
We already tried that, very little was done on the article. I would think the proper course of action would be to discuss the article rather than engaging in petty flame wars as a means to settle disputes. Vera Cruz
Vera Cruz:
Tannin and Ortolan88 would be happy to work on this article once we have both stopped editing it. Those conversations are posted on my talk page. Please, refrain from editing this article once again. If and only if you do, I won’t touch it again.
I don't mind if you edit this article. I don't appreciate your attempts to prevent me from doing likewise. Vera Cruz
Lir, aka Vera Cruz:
You’ve driven away Ortolan88, Tannin, and Slrubenstein from this article already. As one user said, you’re already on borrowed time. Dismember this article, and those three users would be glad to revamp it once you’re banned again.
I haven't driven them away. Vera Cruz
Lir, aka Vera Cruz:
Oh, yes you did: (172)
the following inset quotes are from 172's home page, quoted here by 172, but marked off as quotes by me, Tannin, because I would not have spoken so frankly or personally in this page. And I'm extending the same courtesy to Ortolan, who's comment (quoted from the same place) follows.
I made some minor changes to the article: I reverted to restore Ortolan88's (I think it was his, apologies if I am wrong) paragraph on etymology; I deleted a redundant paragraph on what "new" means; I changed betwixt (sorry, we didn't use this in Brooklyn) to between; and in the intro I put in the dates again -- a paragraph should not begin with a deictic (During "this" period). Slrubenstein
Slrubenstein, thanks for coming back to the article.
Note for all who are not already aware of it: Vera Cruz has been banned. I might not be able to spend any time here for a few days - the bushfire situation here in Australia is pretty serious just now and I have to go and help a friend with a country property - but I look forward to seeing 172 and SLR turning this into a really good article. Perhaps it is time to archive all this talk off and start a fresh page. Tannin 21:42 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)
I deleted some up the subheadings for "The Decline of Pax Britanica and the Rise of NI" because I don't think they reflected a logical structure. I don't propose any new content but I do think there can still be some reorganization of this section and new subheadings. I'll work on it if I have time and invite otehrs to as well, Slrubenstein
I firmly disagree. Each heading lists separate, albeit interconnected, trends associated with the rise of formal colonialism in the late nineteenth century. They were important for the article’s organization. This format was preferable, as there is not the degree of historical consensus that could justify weaving all of these subtopics into a single narrative. Although Slrubenstein has improved the article in many ways, and has been an invaluable contributor, I’m going to revert the former version since its organization had been accepted for so long.
Let’s in the mean time wait to find out what other contributors think.
Slrubenstein:
Since the topic is the “causes”, the individual sub-topics will help non-expert readers sort out the seemingly diverse rages of causes. For quick reference, it is necessary to note where exactly the article will address certain varied trends such as “the amalgamation of industry” and “Russian expansionism” that are associated with the rapid ascendancy of formal colonialism in the late nineteenth century.
I believe that Mav had earlier emphasized the needs for quick-reference headings. He was correct; a non-expert reader will be thrown off by an article that goes from discussing why academics have linked this phenomenon to the concentration of industry by finance to discussing Britain’s preoccupation with Russian expansionism.
We know that Lord Curzon and Disraeli, for instance, were particularly concerned with securing intrinsically important zones of investment with extrinsically significant, strategic “buffer zones”, that the prospects of a Russian encroachment towards the Suez Canal and towards India haunted British statesmen until the Russo-Japanese War. But the non-expert reader will wonder how the Czar was related to economic trends in Britain, for example. That’s why the headings were there, to help guide the reader through an article on a very complex historical phenomenon (complex is an understatement). The headings mark where the article will shift course.
There’s the NPOV matter as well. If this were not an NPOV encyclopedia article, I’d favor using World-Systems theory to explain the “causes of New Imperialism” in a single narrative. But since this is an encyclopedia article we have to present some very controversial topics under the banner of certain headings. Under each heading, the article explained why some historians have emphasized certain trends, including trends wholeheartedly rejected by some scholars. That way, we’re not endorsing certain interpretations, but giving a brief overview of certain points of view regarding the “causes”. The headings, thus, were there to guide non-expert readers.
Let’s see what other contributors think. In the meantime, I’ll revert the version that’s been accepted for the past month.
172, I am not arguing with you and I did not change the subheadings; nor did I make any change of content at all. I was merely pointing out an issue and suggesting a direction for further work. What is wrong with that? Slrubenstein
The heading in bold were gone. That's the problem. They're important!
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought that they were gone once again. 172
I was just passing through and couldn't help but wonder why a reader of this page would need to know the origins and complete history of the word "imperialism" before they could understand the rest of the text. I then glanced at imperialism and was amazed to discover that this text is repeated there, nearly verbatim!
Is it possible we can make this article shorter by including a polite request that a reader interested in learning about said subject could instead go to the article devoted to the history, meaning, connotation, and application of the word in question? Vera Cruz
I've been busy lately, but I'll be back.
Vera Cruz: please consult Tannin, Slrubenstein, Ortolan88 or me before beginning to make changes this time. Take in mind that the current state of the article seems fine to the vast majority of the contributors.
In principle, I agree with VC that the paragraph on etymology is a little too much, and distracting. But as 172 points out, a lot of people worked hard on this and we should discuss alternatives before making actual changes. Offhand, I think that perhaps it can be moved into the section "introduction" and edited a little, Slrubenstein
That section by Ortolan88 on the definition of imperialism is essential. Remember, this article was nearly scrapped because some contributors, Zoe in particular, couldn’t even recognize why this era differed from earlier periods of empire-building.
Remember, given the title, readers will want to know what makes this era “new”.
I'll resume making contributions soon.