Talk:The Holocaust in Lithuania

	The Holocaust in Lithuania has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 25, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed February 23, 2009 Good article nominee Listed
	A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on March 19, 2008. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that over 90% of Lithuanian Jews perished in the first few months of Operation Barbarossa in the Holocaust in Lithuania?
Current status: Good article

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Archives

/Archive 1

This review is transcluded from Talk:Holocaust in Nazi-occupied Lithuania/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hello there, thanks for submitting this article. I've had a read and noted the following areas that need attention. Please note I'm being critical of the article, not the authors, and that this critique is intended only to be constructive. I am writing this as I read so the points are not necessarily in order of importance:

1 dates - please correct and make consistent the formatting of all dates as found in Wikipedia:Date#Dates

Done Fainites ^barley 16:30, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1a numbers - please make consistent throughout the article all use of dates and numbers, do not mix 1,000,000 and '1 million' or 'one million'. See also point 4.

Done - except for where the phrase "tens of thousands" is used.Fainites ^barley 16:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

2 peacock terms - please see Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms and correct instances like "The numbers given by historians differ much more significantly", and "Lithuanian police battalions surpassed their own by far". There are more examples, please read through and remove similar.

Done. I have not removed all superlatives though as it is likely they derive from the sources as this is a subject in which even the driest of historians is moved to superlatives.Fainites ^barley 17:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

3 links - try and shorten some of the links, for instance the operation barbarossa link is quite long and could be improved upon. Also, there are too many red links in the text - please remove these, or at least create disambiguation pages to subjects that are related. Some links are used too commonly, and too close together - such as Pogrom, which appears linked twice in a single paragraph, and 'Simon Wiesenthal Center'. A balance has to be struck between information to the viewer, and readability. Try and insert links only where necessary.

Done Fainites ^barley 17:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

4   - use this instead of a space inbetween numbers and words. This prevents a carriage return between the number and word, and makes it easier for the reader to read. For instance, "200,000 Jews" would make that appear on the same line, rather than 200,000 and Jew being on separate lines (depends on what size of screen the viewer is browsing upon).

Done Fainites ^barley 17:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

5 Grammar - generally very good, however phrases like "Before the German invasion" could be improved thus "In the years approaching the German invasion". "The estimate" could become "This estimate", 'The' is a bit ambiguous in this context. "puts the number of Lithuanian Jews murdered in the Holocaust at 195,000 to 196,000.[2] It is difficult to estimate the exact number of casualties of the Holocaust and the latter number cannot be final or indisputable." - repeated use of the word 'holocaust', and the sentence doesn't read well. Also the sentence in point 4. - what does 'foreign' mean in this context? As a reader, I'm not sure.

Done Fainites ^barley 17:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

6 The German killing squads - this is bordering on a non-neutral point of view (in my opinion that is). While subjects like this are controversial, I think the article would be better sticking to cold, hard, facts, rather than emotive terms like this. Also, begun/began in the following sentence, and About/Around/Approximately/An estimated in the following sentence. Jews did not 'wait' in Ghettos, they were imprisoned surely? Also, why is it that the majority of Jews were not in Ghettos, but a few sentences later 45,000 survived in Ghettos? This needs a little clarification.

Done except for the "killing squads". I'm not sure how else one could describe the einsatzgruppen. "Death squads" would be accurate. "Execution squads" implies some quasi judicial or military purpose which did not exist. These were not soldiers. The Einsatzgruppens purpose was to kill jews and certain other categories of civilians after the army had been through. Fainites ^barley 17:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

7 'quick destruction of Lithuanian Jewry' - Quick would not be my choice of word, perhaps 'rapid'? Also, 'another factor' should be changed so the viewer knows to what it refers (reading the sentence twice makes it obvious, but it should be obvious straight away).

Done Fainites ^barley 17:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

8 'Kaunas on June 25 and held agitation speeches' - gave speeches, or held rallies?

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

9 'Many of Lithuanian supporters of the Nazi policies' - 'of' and 'of the' - needs correcting

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

10 Lithuania - the incompatibility of the Jewish population within the perceived model of the Lithuanian nation-state,[1]), - punctuation, consider a semicolon instead of a hyphen, and the commas around the brackets need fixing

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

11 'By the time of German invasion,' - consider 'onset of' or 'at the time of' or similar

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

12 'The involvement of the local population and institutions, in relatively high numbers' - make clearer to the viewer what they were involved in - the blame in the sentence before, or the holocaust.

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

13 'Out of Lithuanian population of close to three millions' - bad grammar, and see point 1a.

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

14. 'sheltering the Jews' - the Jews, or just 'Jews'?

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

15. 'Jewis' - spelling

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

16. 'Since Lithuania regained independence in 1990' - independance from whom - needs stating or linking

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

17. 'Holocaust has been also difficult' - bad grammar

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

18. 'yet many heroes of the Lithuanian resistance against the Soviets' - should be 'soviet control' or similar

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

19. 'NCSJ: Advocates on Behalf of Jews in Russia, Ukraine, the Baltic States & Eurasia have declared that' - I do not understand this sentence

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

20. 'the Seimas (Lithuanian parliament) held a session during which Alfonsas Eidintas, the historian nominated as the Republic's next ambassador to Israel delivered an address dealing with an accounting of the annihilation of Lithuania's Jews' - consider linking Seimas to Lithuanian parliament, and also break up this sentence with punctuation

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

21. 'There have however been criticism that Lithuania is too slow to deal with that issue' - should be on the previous paragraph, change 'have' to 'has', and change 'that' to 'this'.

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Generally the article is well referenced, but there are several reference repeats in the references section, such as 'Dina Porat, “The Holocaust in Lithuania: Some Unique Aspects”'. I understand that different pages are referenced, but consider instead changing the reference so the page item reads "100, 123, 152, 187" - this would simplify things. See Wikipedia:Citing sources for general information on references. My personal preference is to use reflist in the References section, and cite web/book/news templates for each reference.

Images - consider unifying the size of both images.

Done Fainites ^barley 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please edit the above points to indicate that you have attended to each one, by writing - done where relevant, or explaining why such changes are unnecessary. I am placing this article 'on hold' until improvements are made. Parrot of Doom (talk) 14:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As the changes I requested in my review have not been done, I am failing this article. Please feel free to address the problems I have listed and to resubmit the article in future. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

re: only a small part - a few tens of thousands
from Dina Porat, “The Holocaust in Lithuania: Some Unique Aspects”, in David Cesarani, The Final Solution: Origins and Implementation
   I'm sorry, but this source has to be described as challenged. Cesarani has explicitly stated that he takes Soviet propaganda about Baltic Nazis as having been "verified" by other sources--those being Nazi accounts of Baltic complicity for propaganda consumption which are contradicted by other Nazi accounts at the scene. There were categorically not tens of thousands of Lithuanians, nor Estonians, nor Latvians, participating in killing Jews. —PētersV (talk) 17:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cesarani is an editor of the volume, but Porat has created the content.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have completed the corrections suggested by the GA reviewer as best I am able although I haven't altered the referencing system for multiple cites of the same ref. A tricky one. Parrot of Doom may be prepared to look at it again or you may have to re-refer for GA.

As I have no access to sources and do not have a detailed knowledge of the subject I have endeavoured not to interfere with content in any way but I suggest the authors check my edits to make sure there are no inadvertent content changes.Fainites ^barley 19:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your hard work! --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It makes a change from unvalidated psychotherapies! Fainites ^barley 23:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please omit the statement that antisemitism was among the “national traditions and values” of Lithuania. MacQueen, sole the source cited, does not support the proposition. The notion that antisemitism was among the “national traditions and values” of pre-war Lithuania is conclusory, racist, inflammatory and simply wrong, and greatly hinders the reader really understanding the topic, the Holocaust in Lithuania. Pre-war Lithuania demonstrably was more accepting and tolerant of Jews than its Central European neighbors like Germany and Poland and, for that matter, many Western nations like Denmark, France and the United States -- and this even after absorbing a huge wave of Jews fleeing pogroms in Russia. Andris. — Preceding unsigned comment added by A. Vizbaras (talk • contribs) 14:19, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Holocaust in Nazi-occupied Lithuania/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I'll be happy to review this article for GAC. H1nkles (talk) 17:21, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When I do an article review I like to provide a Heading-by-Heading breakdown of suggestions for how to make the article better. It is done in good faith as a means to improve the article. It does not necessarily mean that the article is not GA quality, or that the issues listed are keeping it from GA approval. I also undertake minor grammatical and prose edits. After I finish this part of the review I will look at the over arching quality of the article in light of the GA criteria and make my determination as to the overall quality of the article.

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   Still could be more comprehensive but I feel it touches the subject enough to pass GA criteria

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

• "The Holocaust of Lithuanian Jewry can be considered the worst tragedy in the history of Lithuania - never before or since in Lithuania have so many people died in so short a time." Watch Weasel words here. Also this is a stub paragraph, consider expanding or combining. H1nkles (talk) 17:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

partially done.Fainites ^barleyscribs 20:14, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note the new lead image (map).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• "Prior to the German invasion of the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941, some people in Lithuania believed Germany would grant the country independence and in order to appease the Germans expressed significant anti-semitic sentiments." Runon sentence, break up into multiple sentences.

Done.Fainites ^barleyscribs 20:17, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• You'll need to cite the end of this section. I added a ^{[citation needed]} to this so it's easy to see what facts need citation.

• Slightly expanded and referenced.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:08, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I think this section could be more comprehensive. How long have Jews been in Lithuania? Where were they concentrated? Had there been anti-semitic feelings prior to Nazi occupation? I think you could expand this section a bit. H1nkles (talk) 17:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Added a template and link to History of the Jews in Lithuania where interested editors can find out many more details on this subject.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Good attempt to detail how many Jews were in Lithuania prior to Nazi occupation and how many were killed.
• " A rogue unit of insurgents headed by Algirdas Klimaitis and encouraged by Germans from the Sicherheitspolizei and Sicherheitsdienst, started anti-Jewish pogroms in Kaunas (Kovno) on the night of 25 June-26 June 1941 in which over a thousand Jews perished over the next few days in what was the first pogrom in Nazi-occupied Lithuania." This is a run-on sentence please break up.

Done.Fainites ^barleyscribs 20:23, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• This sentence is fairly awkward, "Additional factors were religion (Orthodox Catholic), severe economic problems (leading to killing of Jews over personal property) and opposed political orientations (support of the Soviet regime in Lithuania during 1940-1941 by Lithuanian Jews)[d]." Consider expanding this section by giving specific rationale for each factor. H1nkles (talk) 18:17, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

partially done. Fainites ^barleyscribs 20:32, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• this sentence, "Early in the war, some Lithuanian Jewish survivors fell victim to pogroms, some orchestrated by the Lithuanian nationalists." seems redundant, I could be wrong though.

Done.Fainites ^barleyscribs 20:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I added two more ^{[citation needed]} to the end of two paragraphs in this section. Please reference.

Referenced first, removed second (block of text) - see my comment at #Jewish partisans in modern Lithuania below.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:19, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Have there been any memorials erected to commemorate the holocaust in Lithuania? H1nkles (talk) 18:39, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd hope that our Lithuanian editors could answer that, if they are following this thread? I have not run into any mentions of that in English sources I read.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:54, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting section, I've never seen an article with such extensive notations like this. H1nkles (talk) 18:39, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Reference 22 is dead please fix.

Done.Fainites ^barleyscribs 21:24, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Reference 17 has a large description after it in Lithuanian, why? In an English dictionary this won't be of use.

• As I don't know Lithuanian, I can only ask our Lithuanian editors to explain it (and preferably, translate). Otherwise, I'd support removal what is for 99,9% of the readers an incomprehensible (and thus indeed useless) block of text.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Otherwise the references are good, formatted well and credible.

• Could a see also section be added? I think there are several related articles that would be good to put here.

• It is my understanding see also is bad style. Since we have the entire Holocaust template in the article anyway, I am not sure what else could we add to see also that's relevant and not linked somewhere in the article? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:53, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Some prose issues - run on sentences for example - need to be addressed.
• Photos look good.
• check that dead link.

• What dead link? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:22, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I already fixed it. It was to "Righteous Among Nations".Fainites ^barleyscribs 13:02, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• There is an issue of comprehensiveness. I think more could be added, especially in the background section.
• I'll put the article on hold for a week and give some time to make corrections. Please let me know if you finish early and I'll finish my review. H1nkles (talk) 18:47, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• The fixes have been made and I will pass the article. Well done.
• Regarding the naming controversy, I will post my opinions in the discussion thread on the article's talk page. Keep up the good work on this very important topic. H1nkles (talk) 16:52, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]