Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church/Archive 2

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At the end of the introduction to the first section, a note is made that the church is not really divided. I was under the impression that it was. I have never done research on the Orthodox Church, but am now doing research on the history of the Catholic Church (including the Orthodox Church, as I am looking at its origin in ancient Rome). I had "heard" that the various national churches of the Eastern Orthodox Church were fairly well cut-off, though still extremely close (identical?) in form/tradition, because of the poor stability of eastern political systems, including but not limited to the communist crusade against G-d. Does anyone have any information about their integration? Do the bishops all meet together and decide policy that effects all churches, but manage their own at home? Is it all integrated, only without the figure-head that is the pope to the Roman Catholics? thanx, JP GaelicWizard 04:51, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In responce to GaelicWizard - There are two ways one can look at the Orthodox/Catholic situation. Many people choose to see the similarities between the two, others see the differences. If a person has it in mind to notice the similarities then that person may draw the conclusion that the differences are small enough to reunite the church. But if one understands the differences clearly, then it becomes obvious that the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches are light years apart, especially after 1000 years of schism. To sum up an answer to the questions you may have; the very structure of the two churches diverged about 1300 years ago. The West developed the idea of a universal pontiff, while the east remained concicular, with all bishops holding equal status and desisions being made by democratic vote. The Orthodox church retains this democratic structure, however, a general council has not been needed since 787AD to deside policy. Smaller councils are held to solve minor problems, but other than that the Orthodox church does not have any need to hold councils. Our bishops uphold the dictates of the 7 ecumenical councils and nothing else major has ever been needed. Phiddipus
To augment Phiddipus' answer somewhat, the question betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the organization of the Orthodox Church so it's not impossible the article is insufficiently clear on this point. The kind of monolithic integration you seem to be expecting is neither typical nor desireable for Orthodoxy. Except for certain anomalous historical situations where something along these lines was imposed by some hostile political power, the Orthodox Church has never been organized this way. Each Church functions as an independent administrative unit, and there are no "policy" decisions to make overall. The only questions of sufficient seriousness to require a unified answer from the entire Church are questions of dogma, but none have come up over the past 1200 years or so that have not been answered by a more organic process than that of an Ecumenical Council. (For example, the question might be addressed by a respected theologian or local council, and the answers thus reached have been adopted by all the Churches by informal consensus.)
So whether one autocephalous Church is cut off from another administratively or because lines of communication were closed off really doesn't signify. The unity of the Church is a unity in Spirit and in Truth. If there's a visible sign of this, it's in the intercommunion between the various Churches which, even if mainly theoretical, is always given tangible expression when a Primate of an autocephalus Church celebrated the Divine Liturgy and the diptychs are read naming the heads of all the other Churches with which he considers himself to be in communion. But the unity is there regardless of whether it's visible at any particular moment. Csernica 09:46, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)


Why is it still being alleged that Rome, a schismatic and heretodox group, is some sort of "Western Orthodoxy"? They are not "Orthodox" in that they do not adhere to correct doctrine. To call them "Western Orthodox" in an article on "Eastern Orthodoxy" is to give the utterly FALSE impression that the Orthodox somehow consider the Roman Catholics to be some sort of "Orthodox". They are not Orthodox. They are heterodox--which is the opposite of orthodox. Why is anti-Orthodox doctrine being promulgated on a page on Orthodoxy? Protestants consider themselves to be "orthodox", after all. Therefore, the page should also maintain as a 100% FACTUAL statement that Protestants are "Western Orthodox" exactly as it purports as a 100% FACTUAL statement that Rome is "Western Orthodox"--a term that is not even used except by those who would seek to undermine Orthodoxy in favor of the Vatican.

The sentence said only that the modern Catholic Church is "heir" to "'Western Orthodox' traditions," not that it claimed orthodoxy or is orthodox, and it put "Western Orthodox" in quotes to signal that this is just a manner of speaking. Now I've changed the sentence to make even clearer that this is just a manner of speaking and that the RCC has evolved since the schism (and evolution implies deviation from orthodoxy). Even if the signals are ignored and the sentence is read as an assertion about orthodoxy, I think strictly all it implies is that some of the Western patriarchates incorporated under the RCC at time of schism had some orthodox beliefs and practices that became part of the RCC. Also, there was a discussion here before in which the conclusion was that the RCC may indeed regard themselves as "orthodox" with regard to that filo-whatsit clause, which is often cited as the impetus for the schism. If so, the immediate post-schism historical RCC may indeed have claimed to have been orthodox. Anyway, this is beside the point, because the sentence makes no such claim. 168... 22:20, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Seems reasonable now. The sentence later in the paragraph about the Eastern Church additionally claiming orthodoxy clarifies any lingering confusion as well, pointing out the different emphases in the two churches. --Delirium 04:57, Nov 1, 2003 (UTC)
No,, the Catholic Church is not "heir" to "Western Orthodox" traditions. The closest thing to a "Western Orthodox" tradition before the Reformation would be the Celtic Christianity that was found in the British Isles, and which got mostly stamped out by the Roman Catholics within a very few centuries after the Great Schism; the Catholics are not heirs to Celtic Christianity or any other "Western Orthodoxy", they rejected such that there was. The Celts' theology was largely in harmony with the Byzantine Empire, while also having a Celtic flavour to it. It is quite different from the Western theology that is dominated by Aristotle and Augustine. Today, there are Orthodox believers in the West, including the Orthodox Church in America as well as many Greek, Syrian, Russian etc. in the Americas and Europe, along with many converts to Orthodoxy who are native to the Americas or Europe. These are truly Western Orthodox in that they are Western in culture, but Orthodox in that they gladly receive the teachings and practices that were once held by the Celtic and Byzantine Christians alike and have since been handed down by the "Eastern Orthodoxy".
At the very least, the "O" in "Western Orthodox" should be lower case. Wesley 05:14, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Why is the small "o" OK or more acceptable? e.g. Is it that you regard the big O as something akin to a tradename that should only refer to what Easterns consider orthodox?168... 06:22, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Yes, more or less. If it's just an adjective, it should be lower case, like any other adjective in the English language. If it's naming a specific entity, it should be upper case because then it's a proper noun, or part of a proper noun. Why would you capitalize a word like "Catholic" or "Orthodox" unless they were part of a proper noun? Another way to address this might be to say that the Roman Catholic Church is heir to the same tradition to which Eastern Orthodoxy is heir; I think most people on both sides would acknowledge that the other has at least genuine historical continuity. If you look at it that way, then you're looking at a common shared tradition, not separate Western and Eastern ones. And of course each would say that the other has in some way deviated from that original shared tradition. That I think is the symmetry you're looking for. Wesley 06:34, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hmmm. Well, to me and I would have thought that to most people the quotes around "Western Orthodox" signals that we don't mean Orthodox and the text later in the same paragraph makes the Orthodoxy issue clear. But it seems like you'd prefer and would be O.K. with "might be said to be descended from the Western orthodox tradition"; i.e. no quotation marks and a small o. S'alright by me.168... 07:16, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Proof of the existence of the Montenegrin Orthodox Church:

OK Efghij, what about shrines, where in the world do they have an actual Montenegrin Orthodox Church, a shrine in which preferably someone holds a service of some sort, supposedly Orthodox? What about the Croat Catholic Church? Today in ORthodoxy there is ample ground for manipulations, there are pretenders who claim to be 'patriarchs' or priests of some MOntenegrin or even Italian Orthodox Church but none of those have any actual shrines, they are either completely anonymous agents provocateurs or just defrocked priests. I too can claim to be a representative of some autocephalous Wikipedian Orthodox Church, would you write a text on that too?--Igor, 8:02, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

As it says in the CNN article, there are Montenegrin Orthodox priests who hold services. Wikipedia can't disqualify them as a religous group because these services don't take place in a "shrine". In many countries, Baha'is hold services exclusively in each other's living rooms; does that mean they aren't really a religous group either? What about neo-Pagans who only perform cerimonies outdoors? - Efghij 01:05, Sep 23, 2003 (UTC)

Efghij, is there a link on this page (about Orthodox Christiannity) to the Neo-Pagans and the Bahai? I agree that the so-called group can be considered religious I just object to their being classified as Christian Orthodox as they obviously are not. -- Igor 23:08, Sep 27, 2003 (UTC)
Based on a few of the leading articles from the above Google search, it appears that the Montenegrin Orthodox Church controls about 20 or so churches, and has a metropolitan and other clergy.
What are those churches? The religious situation in Montenegro is quite familiar to me and I have yet to hear which churches this group happens to 'hold'? Haven't had the time to read all of the articles above but I can assure you that their presence is not noted in one single shrine. From time to time they go around breaking locks on the shrines of the Serbian Orthodox Church, invade them for a short period before a group of faithful gathers around to protest. The two groups are separated by police, eventually the invaders disperse and go home, following that a real priest has to resanctify the church because it was penetrated by an unholy presence and a new lock is placed on the church. However, given the political picture of Montenegro lately, the incidents have been very few in the past years, perhaps just one or two.
So they don't appear to be a "vapor" group; when they had no buildings they apparently did meet outdoors for a while. They are asking the Serbian Orthodox Church to return about 650 churches and monasteries to them, which it claims were taken or usurped around 1920.
There are bout 650 Orthodox churches in Montenegro, all Serbian Orthodox. Nothing was taken from 'them' in 1920 as they were first registered as a non-profit organization around the late 1990's.
It looks to me as though the conflict is at least partly political, and is just one more part of the fallout of several decades of communism in Eastern Europe.
Entirely political but unlike anything in Eastern Europe.
They should probably be listed where they are for now; I wasn't able to find what I would consider a truly reliable source to confirm or deny their autocephalous status. Truth is it's a mess, and it will probably get sorted out in time.
They are not autocephalous, never were (as there was no tomos) and should not be listed in a page that concerns Orthodox Christiannity, Efghij mentioned Neo-Pagans and the Bahai, I can not speak for them, perhaps they wouldn't mind?
Igor, if you feel like researching them further, a small article on their history, background, relationships or lack of relationships with other Orthodox churches, etc. might not be a bad idea. Wesley 15:38, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Their relationship with other groups is non-existant as they do not exist per say. The Macedonians for example have a splinter groups made up of priests, the Ukrainians I gather as well, this group is made up entirely of renegade defrocked priests. The original mock-metropolitan/patriarch of the group was Antonije Abramovic from MOntreal, Canada, a former priest of the non-recognized Border Russian Orthodox Church (Zagradska Russkaya itd.), following a scandal involving pedophilia, he was forbidden to hold services. He then joined the group in 1993, he died in 1996 and was replaced by Miras Dedeic in 1997 who had just had an anathema thrown on him by the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople for having forsaken his monastic vow of celibacy. He is joined by three other priests of the Serbian Orthodox Church who have been expulsed for different reasons ranging from theft of church property to falsifying a church document to the very same violation of the monastic vow of celibacy by the young Milutin Cvijic, a monk in Ostrog monastery who now actually has a wife and child. --Igor 23:33, Sep 27, 2003 (UTC)
I'd just like to clarify about Montenegrin Orthodox Church: yes, there is a group of people that call themselves Montenegrin Orthodox church; and while they might be Montenegrin, they are neither Orthodox nor church. Current Montenegrin government is using them to stir up relations with Serbian Orthodox Church and strengthen their call for separation from Serbia, which includes usurping of SOC temples by the government of Montenegro. Serbian Orthodox Church could not have usurped its own temples in Montenegro (that belong to Archbishopy of Montenegro and seaside). Nikola 21:52, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Nikola, that is the whole issue, Miras Dedeic was born in Zavidovici (now Bosnia), Milutin Cvijic in Teslic (now Republika Srpska, part of Bosnia as well), Zivorad Pavlovic is from Smederevo in Serbia, Jelisej Lalatovic was born in Montenegro but he is the only one, that's one out of four, 25%. They are not Orthodox as none of these individuals holds any rank in any particualar Orthodox church, they once did but wery stripped of them PRIOR to their joining this group. Groups such as the Ukrainians and Slavic Macedonians are made up of priests who are in conflict with the Orthodox Churches over the question of jurisdiction, because they are not made up of defrocked priests they keep as clear as possible from this group although they might be solidary between themselves (i.e. Ukrainians and Slavic Macedonians). I might object to the claims made by the Slavic Macedonians about autocephaly (I know very little of the Ukrainians' issue) but I believe that their place is rightfully there, they are non-recognized whereas this group annually holds meetings outdoors where it gathers its supporters from the world including a certain 'monsignor Antonio de Rossi', self-styled metropolitan of some 'Italian Orthodox Church' and a certain 'archbishop Andrei' of some 'Real Russian Orthodox Church'. Good luck finding anything on those two. --Igor 0:04, Sep 28, 2003 (UTC)

Igor and Nikola, it sounds like you two are much more familiar with the situation in Montenegro. Perhaps Google is not the One True Fount of Knowledge after all. ;-) I would now like to express my agreement with you. Thanks very much for taking the time to inform the rest of us. Peace, Wesley 16:29, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Google is not bad except that some things still cannot be found on the internet, not in English at least. Regards -- Igor 4:35, Sep 29 2003 (UTC)

I didn't mean to mark that last edit 'minor'. It wasn't minor. Mkmcconn 14:29, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

While I understand your edit User:168..., I do not think that it is an improvement. All recent popes make a point of emphasizing that the Pope does not rule on his own. The bishops in communion with him (uniquely the earthly head of the church, Vicar of Christ, in a class by himself) are the overseers of the church. So, I'm inclined to revert your edit to make this detail explicit. I'll hope for your comments, first. Mkmcconn 02:35, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

To me, the point that you say the popes emphasize is better expressed by saying only "Roman church leaders" or "church leaders in Rome," and leaving the pope to stand unlabeled as just one tree in that forest. Perhaps you understand the words "in communion" to convey something in that context that they are not conveying to me. If that's the case, you might consider there will be others to whom the meaning won't be conveyed either. 168... 02:52, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The bishops are not all "in Rome", but rather, in the Church. The Pope is in Rome, and as the Bishop of Rome is the supreme pontiff of the whole Roman Catholic Church. Only those bishops who are "in communion" with him (not separated from his jurisdiction) have authority in the Roman Catholic Church. But, in recent times the Popes have emphasized that the Pope does not shepherd the church by himself: all of the bishops are the shepherds of the church (in communion with the Pope). These are details of precision that Roman Catholics seem to be sensitive to. Mkmcconn 03:47, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)


O.K..I think I see where you are coming from now. I read the sentence differently than you meant it to be read, I think, because of the commas, which made the "in communion with" descriptor into a separate clause. I edited the sentence back to something close to the way you had it, but without the commas (I used "in communion with Rome" because I think the sentence gets too gangly with "Pope in Rome" or "Roman Pope", which is why I think you resorted to commas). On the other hand, to me it seems like "Roman church leaders" ought to cover the Catholic bishops who are not in Rome, because I read it as "leaders of the Roman church, a.k.a the Roman Catholic Church."168... 04:10, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I don't view it as a truly glaring redundancy though. So I'm not going to fight over it. (But I do think the "Rome" or "Roman" has to appear in the first clause to establish context.) 168... 02:59, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

the new edit works for me. Mkmcconn 04:05, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

copied this text from the page.