Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses/Archive 2

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I really do think this:

Throughout their history, many have found their doctrines and practices controversial. The public and extensive nature of their evangelizing work has escalated controversy against them to the point of mob action, government oppression--including being targeted in the Holocaust--and widespread criticism from members of other faiths. Such criticism has become an entire genre with the advent of the Web.

reads a lot better (and is more natural to the medium) than

Throughout their history, many have found their doctrines, beliefs, and practices controversial. (See Jehovah's Witness Doctrine, Jehovah's Witness Practices). Responses have included mob action, government oppression, including being targetted in the Holocaust (See Jehovah's Witnesses and the Holocaust), and widespread criticism from Christians of other denominations. Such criticism has become an entire genre with the advent of the Web. (See Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses)

Any opinions?

yup, the top version is clearer to read. -- Tarquin
I agree, it's much clearer. Though I'm still not convinced the criticism needs to be broken out into a separate article. Wesley
Wesley, are you convinced that Holocaust Revisionism should be a separate article from Holocaust? Then you should have no problem with the existence of the Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses article. --63.231.52.76 07:49 Oct 12, 2002 (UTC)
I prefer the Encyclopedia style of the second entry. It makes more sense to me. --63.231.52.76 07:49 Oct 12, 2002 (UTC)

Actually, I find these attempts to use the Holocaust as an excuse to remove the opposing links to be quite amusing.  :) Modemac

Do we let fundamentalist Christians censor our articles on Christianity and the Bible and baldly rewrite history, in the issue of "fairness"? Does an impartial encyclopaedia article on Christianity have to be written in accord with Christian theology? No, of course not. Do we let Orthodox Jews censor our articles on Judaism and the documentary hypothesis in the issue of "fairness"? Does an impartial encyclopaedia article on Judaism have to be written in accord with Orthodox Jewish theology? No, of course not. This is an encyclopaedia based on facts, and not a tool for religious propaganda - for any faith. However, we have been letting the pro-Jehovah's Witness crowd get away with murder here, as they keep censoring articles, deleting indisputable facts, and sometimes rewriting history to the point of lying. This is not a good sitatuion. We need a few more people to help keep an eye on this and related entries. Merely maintaining NPOV isn't the problem; it is outright academic dishonest and censorship that we need to fight against.

Opposing Views

Mr 63.* ; you're being a dickhead. Please stop it. NPOV demands that criticism be included. Stop deleting links to it.

Calling me a dickhead doesn't in any way support your thesis. There is an article for Criticism of JW's, just as there is an article for Holocaust Revisionism. --63.231.52.76 18:04 Oct 12, 2002 (UTC)

<yawn> If I must then I must, though you will simply deny this anyways and keep on deleting the links to the opposing viewpoints. There are many, many people and organizations worldwide that promote the fact of the existence and timeline of the Holocaust. Holocaust revisionism is only one minor facet of it, one that is nearly universally rejected because of the overwhelming evidence against it. On the other hand, as far as the Jehovah's Witnesses are concerned, there is only one organization (the Witnesses themselves) promoting the point of view of the Jehovah's Witnesses; there are many organizations and groups worldwide who question that opinion and offer alternating viewpoints. This is why the opposing viewpoints are necessary. This is also why I call it "opposing viewpoints" and not "criticism" -- because that's what it is. Of course, you're simply going to go on deleting the opposing view links anyways, because as far as you are concerned, I am someone who thinks he knows more about the Jehovah's Witnesses than you do. By the way, where is our friend Clutch? Modemac

I think it's time to do away with the criticism article. In the text of the criticism article, it says it's a place to put criticism until what is factual can be hashed out and put in the main article. Well, that seems more the role of a talk page. Further, I think Mr. Clutch and Mr 63.* are misusing that page to suppress what is factual. It is a 'fact' that somebody has a criticism page at some URL. The whole point of NPOV is you report various views, and you attribute them to whoever feels that way. That's exactly what we do when we say "Opposing Views" above the links. q

Since there are pro-JW links and JW is a controversial religious movement there should also be links to websites that are critical of JW, no? Deleting valid links is very unwiki and edit wars are unproductive. If this war doesn't stop then the page may need to be temporarily frozen in order to give everybody some time to cool off. --mav 21:53 Oct 12, 2002 (UTC)

Suggested pages:

-Stevertigo

This is a fascinating debate, and to me, as an atheist, makes me more than aware of what a curiously half-baked affair religiosity in any of its forms actually is. I am interested in the initial assertion in the article as it currently stands that the Jehovah's Witnesses are classified as a Christian denomination despite worshipping Jehovah and not Christ. Anyone care to shed any light on this please? user:sjc

Have you read the Wikipedia article on Christianity, which is linked to in the article itself? The essential belief common to all Christians is that salvation comes through Christ. JW's assuredly hold that belief. --63.231.52.76 07:33 Oct 13, 2002 (UTC)
This looks like a highly selective redefinition of reality to me. I think that one or two of Marx's ideas are interesting. This doesn't make me a Marxist, far from it, I am your archetypal laissez-faire capitalist. Similarly I think that one or two of J Christ's post-Platonic ramblings have a certain merit. That by the same token doesn't make me a Christian. I would need rather more convincing that the JWs were Christian than that to allow them to really be contained within the ambit of a Christian denomination. user:sjc
Atheism has nothing to do with your repeated removal of the links to the opposing viewpoints. You asked (or rather, you demanded) that I respond to your "charge" about Holocaust revisionism vs. the opposing viewpoint links, and I have done so. And you continue to remove the links without any further discussion, Mister "you refuse to answer my challenge." Where is your continuation of this discussion? Modemac

Furthermore, q has a good point. The text for "Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses" says: Criticism levelled against Jehovah's Witnesses can go here until what is factual and what is not can get hashed out sufficiently to be put in the article on Jehovah's Witnesses in a neutral manner. Isn't this what the Talk page is supposed to be about? Modemac

--

Evidently Mr. 63 has given up trying to have any sort of discussion, though he keeps trying to remove the opposing links. How much longer until we have cause to file a complaint to the Wikipedia sysops? (And how much longer after that before he starts crying "religious persecution"?) Modemac

Its not in the interest of an authoritative encyclodedia to have articles that speak in religious language: That is to say, terms within such religious discussion are usually couched in metaphor, so when people argue about minor quasilogical differences between denominations, it strikes the rest of the human world as boring, and utterly self-involved.

Christianity has three main branches, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, and everyone fits into these boxes, like it or not. The Christianity article is need of some work as well.

A religious language is not English, therefore it belongs somewhere else. It may use English words, and look a lot like English, but its not.

Wouldn't religious "language" be best understood as just another set of jargon? A number of the more advanced articles on science and mathematics use some words I don't know either, because I'm not a mathematician. It seems to me that your argument would ban those words from the encyclopedia as well, since they're certainly not plain English to most people. Wesley

'Salvation through Christ' will mean nothing to the objective point of view, (we read encyclopedias for knowledge we do not have - religious knowledge belongs on a talk page, not the article)

The above metaphor and all the others should either be saved for teatime, or have to be reduced to their meaning i.e, '"with the belief in an unearthly spirit, comes also the belief in its immortality, through the continituity of life, represented by (insert metaphor here).

- Stevertigo

If "Salvation through Christ" means nothing from an objective point of view, then such an objective point of view means nothing in the discussion of religious topics. Substitute that kind of objective view point, and you will make clear to all religious people that you are not only disinterested in religion, but positively hostile to it. Mkmcconn
You are quite correct that this is a core concept within the terms of reference of this subject Mkmcconn. But it is a very intangible concept by its very nature and is evidently and manifestly insufficiently defined. Perhaps it needs clarification in an article on the subject, written from an appropriate NPOV of course. I would tend to argue that from my conversations with a number of "Christians", that "Salvation through Christ" is way down the order of precedence. But hey, maybe I'm just skeptical. user:sjc
The terms can be defined in such a way to be descriptive, instead of preferential, without resorting to the biased notion that non-religious terms are a more "objective" way of describing religion. Mkmcconn
There is nothing "biased" in objectivity nor do I see any problem in trying to accurately describe something nor using a terminology which is appropriate. That is the whole point of what we are doing here. Perhaps the problem is that religion and the associated semantics which underpin it are inherently non-objective and should be accurately described as such, e.g. in the way in which descriptions of fictional characters in articles are clearly ring-fenced with the word "fictional". The corollary of which, of course, is that all religious concepts should be clearly delineated as such. I have no problem with that. user:sjc


LOL, mkm.. you accuse me of being hostile to religion, but, i accuse any religion to be hostile towards the other. It is the lack of common language that has created this hostility, nitpicking, and inability to reconcile common values and core beliefs. You claim an allegiance to a family of religion that only exists as a unity against secularism. -stevertigo

This won't get far, I can see. No, I'm not talking about either, you or me, or what your hostilities are or what my allegiances are. The point is that the adoption of a secularized, "objective", scientific point of view such as has been described, would not be neutral when dealing with a religious subject. Mkmcconn

Perhaps this debate can continue in a more appropriate place: Talk:Controversy over religious semantics, objectivity, and play (esoteric) -q

This feud is exactly what I was afraid would happen to the Unification Church article, and it may be instructive to compare the current squabble here to the relative peace that has reigned over there.

  1. Although I am a member of the Unification Church, I have tried to digest any criticism at a leisurely pace, often preferring to leave in what I regard as a mistake.
  2. When I did feel it necessary to speak up, I would place a comment on the talk page first, and wait for replies.
  3. After several months of this, I'm more likely to hear about a "criticism" from another contributor than to see it myself: "Hey, Ed, why do you let them say that about your church?"

I feel that my determination not to make a fuss about what I believe has helped keep things smooth over there. At least, no one's ganging up on me. And user:Wesley has been unfailing kind and helpful.

Have I brought out any helpful insights that can ease the situation here? --Ed Poor

If someone actually has a good reason to delete the Opposing View links, that should be explained here on the Talk page before deleting them again. That's just standard Wikipedia etiquette to avoid editing wars. Wesley

OK, deleting the links is beginning to rise to the level of vandalism -- at the very least this is causing a lot of unproductive use of the this talk page and is draining our human resources. I suggest that the person doing so stop or risk a 24 hour block. --mav

I've stated my reason as to why the Opposing Viewpoints should remain on the main page: as far as the Jehovah's Witnesses are concerned, there is only one organization (the Witnesses themselves) promoting the point of view of the Jehovah's Witnesses; there are many organizations and groups worldwide who question that opinion and offer alternating viewpoints. This is why the opposing viewpoints are necessary, to counter the "official" (sanitized) Jehovah's Witness links and offer genuine differing viewpoints. This is also why I call it "opposing viewpoints" and not "criticism" -- because that's what it is. If Clutch/63 could be so kind as to try talking things over and accepting the fact that the Jehovah's Witness worldview is not the only one allowed on Wikipedia, we could come to an amiable solution. And to Mr. Poor: As someone who has had less-than-satisfying experiences online with the Unification Church (a Moonie mouthpiece named Damian Anderson tried to wipe out the entire alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.* newsgroup hierarchy on Usenet once), I appreciate your open-mindedness. Modemac

How interesting, the previous explanation of why the Opposing Views links were being removed has been erased from this Talk page. Now I wonder why someone who is self-proclaimedly "out to get" JW's would do that. Those links are strident, partisan, clearly biased, and mostly innaccurate and misleading. I stated clearly that if people can find factual articles, without innuendo, lies, and misleading statements filling them up, they are welcome to link them in. So far that has not happened. The people that want the "Opposing Views" in only seem to want the ones that trash the JW religion. This does not help anyone take the scholarly standards of the Wikipedia seriously. None of the anti-JW crowd has dealt with this issue, instead preferring to ignore it and say "We think the links should stay anyway". Responding to my comments dismissively is not the same as considering them thoughtfully. This article is for objective facts about the JW's, not for the unconfirmed, often innacurate subjective opinions of every Tom, Dick and Harry that feels he doesn't like them. I feel sad that some people feel such intense hatred that a neutral stating of objective facts is called "pro-JW propaganda" by them. Their own attempts at what they feel is "counter-propaganda" is even sadder. This article is about JW's, not "why I and some others hate them".

The kind of accusations those opposing views links make are similar in truthfulness to the accusations made on anti-Semite websites, accusing the Jews of mixing Gentile blood with their matzo every Ceder, raping little baby girls, and the like. One could refute them, but who has time? There are just too many. One or two examples of such bias should be enough to discredit these sites. Then if you find an unbiased article, you can link it in. For this reason I say, if you continue to post these links to the JW article, you must, in all conscience, post a link to the Zundelsite on the Holocaust page because it is equally factual and irrelevant. Handwaving and disagreement by Modemac doesn't change these facts. --63.231.52.76 20:08 Oct 14, 2002 (UTC)

Dear anonymous; Your slander of all these people border on hatespeech. How dare you compare critics of JW's with murderers, and with anti-Semites. Your constant vandalizim of this encyclopaedia only proves that much of the criticism made against JW's is true. You and your peers here use unscrupulous tactics to slander others, censor material, promote bald-faced lies and literally rewrite history. Your actions only prove to the rest of us that the criticisms made against you are true. If you do not go away, you be banned from Wikipedia. Hopefully permanently. RK