Talk:Vilnius/Archive 1

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I _will_ change this page. ANy Lithuanians here? I don't like "Poles started to take over many aspects of Lithuanian life" sentence. This is shameless lie.

I would also add that Poles were almost 70% of middle Lithuania population before WWII, and majority o the rest wer Jews and Belarussians. [[szopen]]

O.K. I have forgot to write down some facts about Armia Krajowa conducted genocide of Lithuanians, where many of Lithuanian families were murdered, including infants and elders, after the occupation of Vilnius Region. Of course, i understand, that Armija Krajova has shown courage against nazi occupants in Poland, so they are heroes for many people, but people have forgeten their shameful doings in Lithuania. If you need facts about polonization, i can give you - newspapers and books in Lithuanian were banned, and many people were forced to change their surnames to sound like Polish, to pretect themselves from discrimination - now we have some funny surnames in Vilnius Region and strange family geneology trees with dual surnames, where the ancestors have one family name, and the others have another, with the same family name root. Many Lithuanians were forced to move from Vilnius before WWII. Where do you live yourself to judge the history of Vilnius, szopen? And I think, this discussion is useless and even harmful - as it encourages tension between the nations. I still remember, that I was not able to ask time on street a few years ago at Polish people, if I would ask them in Lithuanian - things have got much better now, we have learned to live in peace. So, changing history in favour of _any_ nation is very bad practice, you know. So, please, be wise, and do not forge history facts, despite they are not nice in the context of great Polish history. [[//Darius Mazeika]]

Again, every frigging article about former German citry has a information that Germans were once majority and German name is also mentioned. Why Vilnius has no mentioning that before WWII and EVEN in times of WWI Vilnius has Polish majority, and Lithuanians were less than few percents in the city?

Again, The "facts" about AK are not so sure. First, a lot of documentation was fabricated by Soviets (the most famous is fabrication of collaboration between AK and Nazis, which was "redivcovered" again some time ago). Second, a lot of Poles were murdered by Lithuanians during WWII (eg. Zimanas together with other nationality partisans wiped out whole Polish vilalge of Koniuchy). Third, AK throughout the WWII fought with German units lus soviet, who had orders to disarm AK soldiers or shoot them on spot, and with Lithuanian "partisans" such as Plechavitius, collaborating with Germans and persecuting Polish population. Fourth, The fact is that population of the region voted in the referendum after the Zeligowski putsch (boycotted by Lithuanians) and joined Poland. In 1920 about 70% population of whole region was Polish, and Vilnius much more. [[user::szopen|szopen]]

Apologising to wikipedia users. Just can't stand discussions with Nico etc who constantly is accusing as about Polish nationalism whenever we refuse to change the name of Polish city into German version, while former Polish cities have no mentioning about Poles being majority there. This maybe also related to fact, that half of my family was expelled after WWII from what today is Belarus. [[user::szopen|szopen]]

Listen guys, we won't get far with this kind of discussion. Instead, we should simply try to make something together. The present note indeed lacks some info on the mixture of cultures inhabitating it. As far as I remember from my discussions with fellow Lithuanians, the only census they accept (prior to 1993) is the 1916 one (which, AFAIR, does not look biased at all). I know there used to be a polish website with it, but I can't find it. Do you have the percentages at home? That would ease the things, don't you think? Halibutt 22:21, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

No census is reliable. Russians were trying to count as little Poles as possible. Also, before 1914 many people have double identity as Poles-Lithuanians, or no national identity at all ("tutejsi"). It's generally acknowledged that in XIX century majority of population of countryside was either polonised or whiteruthenised and was then counted as either Russian, Whiterussian, Polish or Lithuanian depending on who was doing the census.

But the fact is, that in plebiscite (boycotted by Lithuanians) in which participated 60% of population, overhleming majority voted for joining VIlnius into Poland. The fact is also that the Vilnius city (without countrysides) has majority of Polish population.

1931 census for VIlnius and neighbourhood (Swiecienskie and Wilenskie): Poles 377 400 (69,1%) Jews 68 800 (12,6%) Lithuanians 61 700 (11,3%) Byelorussians 15 300 (2,8%) Russians 10 000 (1,8%) different 12 900 (2,4%) total - 546 100 (100,0%)

2002: Population of Vilnius by nationality Total 542287 Lithuaniais 313424 Poles 101526 Russians 75850 Belorussians 21484 Ukrainians 7012 Jews 2769

See also article which IMHO is the best describing processes which were in Lithuania. In short, cities were Polish or with double Polish-Lithuanian identity, countryside was first Lithuanian, and then either polonised or white-ruthenised.szopen

The article is nice indeed, but I'm looking specifically for the 1916 census.

Cheers - Halibutt 13:59, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hi, I think it's ridiculous to quarrel about who was worst. Too often Lithuanians and Polish forget that the two nations used to share their common state through centuries. It was the wish of both parts. Even at 1830 and 1863 uprisings Polish and Lithuanian speaking people fought together. Lithuanians too often forget that the former Lithuania was not their ethnic state. Former Lithuania was multiethnic country. Official language of the state was not neither Lithuanian nor Polish but White Ruthenian. Talking about people living in Grand Duchy of Lithuania, or even later in present ethnic or national terms is ridiculous. Thousands and thousands Polish speaking people regarded themselves as Lithuanians. In many homes it was obvious to speak Polish, Lithuanian and White Ruthenian. There were ridiculous situations in the first decades of XX centrury, when people had to define themselves in ethnic sense. For example of three brothers one defined himself as the Polish, the second one Lithuanian, and the third one as White Rutenian. I am not joking. The Polish speaking people (not necessarily the Polish in the ethinc sense) in Lithuania did not fall from the moon or settled there by force. But they were overwhelming majority in central Lithuania in 1918. It is the fact. But Zeligowski's action was just stupid. Finally destroyed relations between Polish and Lithuanian speaking communities in Lithuania. It was possible to solve it in another way. SF

While I agree with you in general, it's hard to decide whether there was "other" possibility. The case of Vilnius was redirected to League of Nation, which most probably would (as in case on Cieszyn) refuse to make plebiscite and just, providing it past activities, just attach Vilnius to Lithuania. Pilsudski was born in Vilnius area IIRC, to remind you. Just as Zeligowski and great part of his "revolted" soldiers.

Anyway, correction: Polish side made election to Sejm, not plebiscite. Nethertheless 60-70% of population voted for Polish party which then unanimously attached Vilnius area to Poland. Lithuanians boycotted elections. szopen

SF, apart from the whole Zeligowski case (in which I'm not sure, simply), I couldn't agree more. I added a 'culture' tab in the Central Lithuania article. Hope to get some support from you.

Halibutt 07:53, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)