Talk:Water fluoridation/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Water fluoridation. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

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Archive 5

I'll put the traditional greeting on your talk page. The main difference between http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org and here is probably the NPOV policy, which you should look at. Basically Wikipedia should attribute all opinions and not take a position, articles shouldn't be one-sided or propagandistic. It's also helpful to discussion if you get log-in name and sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~)...they get converted to your user name when the page is saved.

As for "FDA approval", fluoride doesn't have it because it doesn't need it: its use is authorzed by law. See 21 CFD 170.45 for the current Federal policy: "170.45 Fluorine-containing compounds. The Commissioner of Food and Drugs has concluded that it is in the interest of the public health to limit the addition of fluorine compounds to foods (a) to that resulting from the fluoridation of public water supplies as stated in § 250.203 of this chapter, (b) to that resulting from the fluoridation of bottled water within the limitation established in § 103.35 (d) of this chapter, and (c) to that authorized by regulations (40 CFR part 180) under section 408 of the Act."

I suspect the principle, if any, behind the "moving" is to keep the propaganda on one page so that people looking for information on the element fluorine don't have to wade through it to find what they want. - Nunh-huh 05:26, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. All those policies are reasonnable and accepted as such.

And as for FDA approval, this is FDA limitation and not an acceptance of the 'helps teeth at levels not too toxic' part; limitations are used when a substance isn't banned or approved yet but a known toxic dose has been noticed by the FDA (i.e. preliminary to making more research - may results in bans or more restrictions). A true FDA approval (i.e. Prozac approval) is much more complex, and explicitely states benefit and toxicity. Not to mention there are 100's of fluorine compounds and one prozac. The FDA didn't make it a nutrient either(it's wrongly presented as a nutrient in the 8 vitamin books I consulted - and it isn't a nutrient in Canada where I live either). All that is enough to raise an eyebrow and have a thesis chapter about. How come 8 different vitamin books all mention it as a nutriment???

This FDA document also comes after well over 3 decades of ignoring the issue altogether in the face of constant opposition to fluoridation. Regardless of current policy, this is interesting to historians, and has been the case of most things banned in the US today (i.e. lead in gasoline). It's however a first for a medication!

And by the way. The study about slower reaction to a peripherial light after taking fluorides. Where can I find a good link for that?

What about fluoridation in the rest of the world? There was a debate in the UK on the subject.

fluoridation is overwhelmingly an english-speaking country practice.

China, Japan, europe, countries/provinces of the old URSS, and many others don't fluoridate at all or only in one city as a test. Some european contries have altered their constitution(!) to ban fluoridation completely and forever. Many nobel prize winners(as well as some past american EPA leaders such as Robert Carton) consider fluoridation the fraud of the century. All cities that fluoridate have strong opposition to fluoridation.

Regardless of the merits or problems of fluoridation, one has to realize american influence correlates with the practice of fluoridation more than anything else I can think of.

India, for example, has an anti-fluoride program that removes natural fluorides from water at levels that would be considered "good for teeth" in the US. Scientific studies done by the India government, notably the Teotia study [1] has given results in direct contradiction of the early US studies or US claims.

In contrast the US government has solidly been behind fluoridation in every way since the very beginning(before the very first serious scientific study was made). Their commitment was infallible since day one and the marketing campaign(by Edward Bernays at the time) for the launching of all early fluoride products(fluoridation, toothpaste, but not fluoride drops) it is one of the most expensive in history.

All this discussion of scientific studies in the US being generally in contradiction with scientific studies from non-US influenced countries may be too large, complex, and edit-war-generating for the article. We need something anyone can check quickly or else we will have plenty of true statements removed because they are very contrary to opinions vehiculated by the US media and need more than one link click to verify.

What we can do that's NPOV is a map of where fluoridation is used or not(this is easily verified), and maybe a short note indicating why the government stopped or didn't accept it.

There is a partial map here [2] , but more work needs to be done. A small .GIF with fluoridated, non-fluoridated, and fluoridation-banned areas would be nice once ready.

Japan's comment from Japan's official letter on the subject says:

REJECTED: "...may cause health problems...." The 0.8 -1.5 mg regulated level is for calcium-fluoride, not the hazardous waste by-product which is added with artificial fluoridation.

A question about why calcium fluoride wasn't used in fluoridation was removed from the article just recently. Considering some modern, industrialized countries like Japan officially consider fluoridation a conspiracy to dump toxic waste in water at low cost, and back it with many credible scientific studies(in Japaneese) to boot, I don't see why the wikipedia article should exist without a comment that many countries banned or completely disagree with fluoridation on scientific grounds.

I assume CaF isn't used because it is not very soluble in water. The K_sp of CaF is 3.2 x 10^-11, which means that for all intents and purposes, CaF is insoluble in water. For a comparison, the K_sp of marble (CaCO₃) is 3.3 x 10^-9, so CaF is less soluble in water than marble, whereas NaF would have a near infinite solubility in water when compared to CaF.

Darrien 04:08, 2004 Sep 21 (UTC)

Then fluoridation couldn't be discovered by natural calcium fluoride in municipal water like the pro-fluoridationists claim? Or was it somehow somewhat soluble in that town only? Obviously I'm expecting it's too costly, but I'd be astonished if it wasn't doable; at least in form of calcium fluoride pills(all fluoride supplement pills are now banned as untested by the FDA, and calcium fluoride pills were never made).

Even as insoluble as CaF is, (if my math is correct) it is still soluble to the order of about 0.2 mg per liter of water. If the water was acidic, it would increase the solubility somewhat.

Darrien 11:16, 2004 Sep 21 (UTC)

Once a fluoridation/ban fluoridation map is ready, no one will remove comments like "...but most of europe disagrees...". Because the comment will be "Most of europe does not practice fluoridation". Both statements are equally true but the first seems very POV in the POV of the average uninformed person while the second seems fact even to most pro-fluoridationists.

For the record the comment was not removed by an american so could you please take your sterotyping away please?Geni 07:03, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

SB: I removed the 'american' word from my own text. Sorry about the stereotyping. And I started signing as 'SB' so you can trace all my mistakes to me. (-;

You should consider getting a username. It's quick and it doesn't even require an email address.

Darrien 11:16, 2004 Sep 21 (UTC)

SB: Oh, why was the category medical ethics removed?

Because there isn't enough evidence that fluoridation is harmful, and people are not being forced to drink fluoridated water. They can buy bottled water or install filtration systems to remove the fluoride ions if they choose to.

Darrien 11:16, 2004 Sep 21 (UTC)

I don't know enough about all the scientific evidence to say something about that the possible risks, but I do know that it still is a controversial issue. The scientific debate over this isn't finished yet (just like the recent studies on vitamin intake effects show how little we know about the interaction of some chemicals with the human body). The scientific debate isn't the only thing about this issue. This is also about special government intervention into the health of nearly all people via trusted public goods. Should the government be allowed to put 'healthy' mechanisms into public services, perhaps to reduce obesity, prevent cancer, boost vitamin/mineral intake, etc.? This is why I think the issue belongs in the medical ethics section. Walden 11:40, 2004 Sep 21 (UTC)

Even if fluoridation was proved safe and effective, the issue of medicating an entire population without choice has been a medical ethics question for decades for a large number of substances and distribution systems. This one question is gonna stick around for centuries to come, probably without consensus. The question of going for either the safest, or lowest cost, or the most teeth-protection fluoridation system if we can't have all 3 at once will also come up. I humbly suggest you add back the category, Darrian. Or suggest an alternative page that would deserve a connection between ethics and some uses of fluorides and thus be listed under the category; I have the feeling I'm about to learn another wikipedia unwritten law!

SB: Anwsering Darrien:

You said fluorides aren't proven to be toxic. Here is one study. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11233755 1. They augment lead poisoning. But only with certain fluorides (which raises an ethical question).

flawed study becasue it did not acount for varations in economic statusGeni

Also, that link only shows the summary of the study.