Talk:Zionism/Archive 5

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JeMa: I added the info to show how early these other locations were catagorically rejected (sixth zionist conference). the page appeared to imply that Zionism and Zion (the location) are not linked. rather strange idea that the two are not inextracably linked. the page also failed to indicate where that "national homeland" might be. as if Palestine was a consolation prize. OneVoice 20:44, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Changed "30 years of Palestinian-Israeli conflict" to "70 years of Arab-Israeli conflict".

30 years of Palestintian-Israeli conflict indicates that one of the following is true:

  1. there have been only 30 years of conflict (which 30 years?)
  2. the Palestinians did not exist till prior to 30 years ago
  3. the Palestinians existed as a people for no more than 30 years.

30 years would be 1970. Surely, we agree that that conflict has lasted more than 30 years. Palestinians claims that their peoplehood is older than 30 years. "30 years of Palestinian-Israeli conflict" is factually incorrect. "more than 30 years...." would be a significant improvement yet hide the duration, similiarly one could write truthfully: "more than two years....".

The surrounding Arab states have played a significant role in the conflict. One could argue that they have played a larger role in the conflict than the Palestinians. The conflict began in 1948 at the latest. Hence, "more than 50 years of Arab-Israeli conflict". I would argue that the conflict can be reasonably dated from the Arab Revolt of 1936 or from the Massacres of 1929. Hence 70 years. OneVoice 13:13, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

  • Sigh* 1. Israel didn't exist 70 years ago. 2. The article is about Zionism, not about the Israel-Palestine conflict. 3. The Palestinian-Israel conflict in its present form dates from the beginning of the PLO's terrorist campaigns against Israel, in about 1969. This is the relevent point in the context of the article. Please stop trying to stuff the article full of irrelevant (and usually inaccurate) material. Adam 14:12, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Adam, lets take your points one by one.

1. "Israel didn't exist 70 years ago." Correct, Israel was founded in 1948. This page is about Zionism. Zionism preceded the founding of the State of Israel. The conflict began before the founding of the State of Israel. This makes 50 years a minimal number. No one has claimed that the State of Israel preceded 1948. We agree.

2. "The article is about Zionism, not about the Israel-Palestine conflict." Agreed again. The article mentions the Israel-Palestine conflict nonetheless, perhaps it should not? Deleting the clause is fine.

3. "The Palestinian-Israel conflict in its present form dates from the beginning of the PLO's terrorist campaigns against Israel, in about 1969". (Ah, 1969, this explains why is page says 30 years.) Here is where we disagree. If we are to date the conflict from the onset of terrorism. Terrorist campaigns against Israel began already in the 1950's, which led to conflicts in Gaza and in Jordan (Samua for example: a terrorist attack by Fatah against three Israeli soldiers prompted an Israeli reprisal. A large Israeli force entered the Jordanian-occupied West Bank village of Samua, and encountered a battalion of Jordanian soldiers, leading to a firefight that left 15 Jordanian soldiers dead.[1]). The conflict between the Jewish inhabitants of the area that would become Israel and the Arab inhabitants predates the founding of the State of Israel by at least half a year (since the UN resolution ending the Mandate). One might well argue that the conflict goes back to either the Arab Revolt 1936 and its attacks upon Jewish communities or to the Massacres of 1928. Others would argue that the conflict goes back to the events that resulted in the formation of the first Jewish armed defense organizations (example the Haganah formed in June 1920 [2]. I should have written 80 years rather than 70.

The Arab states have played a major role in the conflict. Currently their role is limited to some limited funding of the PA/PLO, diplomatic support for the PA/PLO, economic boycott is Israel, continuing state of war (except for Egypt and Jordan (others with peace treaties?)), etc.

"30 years of Israel-Palestinian conflict, " does not mention in its present form even assuming that the present form is materially different than the previous form(s).

Hence I argue for a change to "80 years of Arab-Israeli" conflict.

More than 50 years after the founding of Israel, and after more than 30 years of Israel-Palestinian conflict, the great majority of Jews in all countries continue to regard themselves as Zionists and to support Israel in all circumstances, although many have misgivings about current Israeli policies. Some liberal or socialist Jews outside Israel still oppose Zionism as a matter of principle.

One could rewrite this as:

The great majority of Jews in all countries continue to regard themselves as Zionists and to support Israel. Some Jews have misgivings about current Israeli policies. Some Jews oppose Zionism as a matter of principle.

Liberal or Socialst misses the religious Jews that are opponents of Zionism.

Its not unequivically clear to me the meaning to be conveyed by "More than 50 years after the founding of Israel, and after more than 30 years of Israel-Palestinian conflict....continue to regard themselves as Zionists". Are they Zionists in spite of the passage of time and the conflict or because of it? Not clear to me. OneVoice 15:16, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)