- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 15:55, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
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Play-by-mail game
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that play-by-mail games, also played by email or online today, allow complex gameplay versus many live players with an observer describing an early game as "the most complex game system on Earth"?Source: Judith Proctor (March–April 1993). "PBM Corner: Not Just for a Dull Evening". White Wolf Magazine. No. 35. p. 51 (first sentence in advantages/disadvantages of PBM gaming); Quoted text from Jim Townsend, (1988). "The PBM Corner". White Wolf Magazine. No. 11. p. 20 (in Complexity section); Nicky Palmer (Autumn 1984). "PBEM". Flagship. No. 4. p. 23–24 (for email and online)
- ALT1: ... that an observer once described a play-by-mail game as "the most complex game system on Earth"? Jim Townsend, (1988). "The PBM Corner". White Wolf Magazine. No. 11. p. 20 (in Complexity section)
_Simulated_Game_Turn.jpg)
This play-by-mail game's turn results could be 1,000 pages in length
- Comment: Would be nice if this could get a higher placement in the DYK listing on day of posting, if approved. Play-by-mail game articles usually end up as
last or[middle to] second-to-last on the list. Understandable, but this is the main article for the genre, is rated High-Importance for Wiki-Project Board and Table Games, and Mid-Importance for WikiProject Video Games. Appreciate the consideration!
QPQ pending.
Improved to Good Article status by Airborne84 (talk). Self-nominated at 22:37, 5 December 2021 (UTC).
Review Reviewed Metaphorical framing
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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Policy compliance:
- Adequate sourcing:
- Neutral:
- The scope of the topic needs work. The initial definition includes any turn-based game using digital media but that seems much too wide. It seems best to stick to physical post because once you include digital media, there now are too many possibilities which will stray far from the core topic – Tabletop Simulator, MMORPGs, and many more.
- I had this same discussion with the Good Article reviewer, who is apparently an experienced PBM gamer. The issue is that two 21st century PBM magazines (Flagship and Suspense & Decision) and multiple PBM publishers use turn-based gaming now in place of PBM or PBEM. Here's an example from a current publisher, Madhouse UK. This isn't to imply that PBM games encompass all TBGs—they are just a subset, of course. But removing that from the definition might actually violate WP:NPOV since the article would then not reflect the industry's modern sources. At a minimum, the article would not be comprehensive. I could put a footnote in after the turn-based game definition in the first sentence to clarify that "PBM turn-based games are a subset of the broader turn-based game definition." Would that help?
- I added a footnote to the turn-based gaming definition in the lead to identify TBGs that evolved from the PBM genre as a subset of TBG.
- I had this same discussion with the Good Article reviewer, who is apparently an experienced PBM gamer. The issue is that two 21st century PBM magazines (Flagship and Suspense & Decision) and multiple PBM publishers use turn-based gaming now in place of PBM or PBEM. Here's an example from a current publisher, Madhouse UK. This isn't to imply that PBM games encompass all TBGs—they are just a subset, of course. But removing that from the definition might actually violate WP:NPOV since the article would then not reflect the industry's modern sources. At a minimum, the article would not be comprehensive. I could put a footnote in after the turn-based game definition in the first sentence to clarify that "PBM turn-based games are a subset of the broader turn-based game definition." Would that help?
- Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
- Other problems: - There is perhaps too much quoting. What particularly grates is when single words or short phrases are put in quotes, e.g. "almost any game", "most obvious" or "surviving". These come across as scare quotes.
- OK. The GA reviewer is a member of the Guild of Copyeditors and recommended some trimming of the same (done), but I don't mind addressing these and scrubbing back through to see if there are any others.
- I fixed these and paraphrased (mainly) or removed the quotes (a few) from about 12–15 others. There are still quotes, but I think it is at a more acceptable level.
- OK. The GA reviewer is a member of the Guild of Copyeditors and recommended some trimming of the same (done), but I don't mind addressing these and scrubbing back through to see if there are any others.
Hook eligibility:
- Cited: - The hook talks about "today" but is supported by sources from the 1980s.
- Will hold off on this until the hook gets sorted out.
- See below.
- Interesting: - It's too long and tries to do too much so the reader will lose interest. Better to just stick to the punchline of "the most complex game system on Earth".
- Thanks. I"m unsure about making the hook about just one PBM game. However, the quote does have hook value. I'll trim this hook and develop one or two ALTs. Appreciate the feedback.
- I went with a shorter hook. Let me know what you think.
QPQ: 
- Still pending
Overall: 
If you want better billing then let's find a good picture or a quirky hook. I have some ideas myself ... Andrew🐉(talk) 13:24, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks Andrew Davidson! Happy to hear ideas on hooks! Pics would be great as well, but are tricky. Many PBM pictures here on Wikipedia are fair use which I think are not allowed on DYK. The public domain ones in the article or in other ones are text-based (PD-text) and may not be good for DYK. Airborne84 (talk) 22:39, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Below are some examples of public domain images from PBM articles. Not sure how others would feel about them as DYK images.
- Thanks Andrew Davidson! Happy to hear ideas on hooks! Pics would be great as well, but are tricky. Many PBM pictures here on Wikipedia are fair use which I think are not allowed on DYK. The public domain ones in the article or in other ones are text-based (PD-text) and may not be good for DYK. Airborne84 (talk) 22:39, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Airborne84: Sorry to keep you but it's a busy time for me and Christmas is looming fast. But I haven't forgotten you and so I spent some time in the archives today. I located a box of Empyrean Challenge files and, as a sample, have just uploaded a sample printout to that article. It's perhaps too obscure and boring to impress so I'm still mulling over how best to convey the scale of the game. A really fat printout might do it but they must be in another box. But I'll go through this one first. I'll also look through some issues of Flagship... More anon. Andrew🐉(talk) 20:51, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks Andrew Davidson. The cited source noted 1,000-page turn printouts in extreme cases. If you have some turn results approaching that, you might photograph it in a stack from an angle with a plain-color background. I'm not an image expert but think if you then released it to the public domain on uploading (or whatever license is allowable for DYK), that might work. The trick would be wording the caption without naming the game, potentially negating the hook. There are other possibilities. I only have a few issues of Flagship, beyond those available online, but will check through some Paper Mayhem issues – I have more of those. Thanks again. Airborne84 (talk) 00:24, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
- I haven't found any usable Empyrean Challenge images. I found an image but it would be fair use which I think is not acceptable for DYK. Airborne84 (talk) 14:52, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- Airborne84, you are correct in that fair use images are not allowed to be used in DYK nominations. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:34, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- I haven't found any usable Empyrean Challenge images. I found an image but it would be fair use which I think is not acceptable for DYK. Airborne84 (talk) 14:52, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks Andrew Davidson. The cited source noted 1,000-page turn printouts in extreme cases. If you have some turn results approaching that, you might photograph it in a stack from an angle with a plain-color background. I'm not an image expert but think if you then released it to the public domain on uploading (or whatever license is allowable for DYK), that might work. The trick would be wording the caption without naming the game, potentially negating the hook. There are other possibilities. I only have a few issues of Flagship, beyond those available online, but will check through some Paper Mayhem issues – I have more of those. Thanks again. Airborne84 (talk) 00:24, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Airborne84: Sorry to keep you but it's a busy time for me and Christmas is looming fast. But I haven't forgotten you and so I spent some time in the archives today. I located a box of Empyrean Challenge files and, as a sample, have just uploaded a sample printout to that article. It's perhaps too obscure and boring to impress so I'm still mulling over how best to convey the scale of the game. A really fat printout might do it but they must be in another box. But I'll go through this one first. I'll also look through some issues of Flagship... More anon. Andrew🐉(talk) 20:51, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
Andrew Davidson please let me know if ALT1 with either Empyrean Challenge image I added works. Thanks. Airborne84 (talk) 00:23, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
- I've been trying to get a recheck here, but unsuccessfully. AGF, I think Andrew Davidson is just very busy IRL. Perhaps someone else could complete this review? Airborne84 (talk) 23:48, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure exactly where you could ask about this, but maybe try at Wikipedia talk:Did you know? BOZ (talk) 23:59, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
This is an excellent article and I'm looking to approve it soon, but just some queries, mostly about the image. As well as the issues of whether a stack of paper is a popular DYK image, I'm more concerned by the gap between the caption and what it portrays. The simulated game here has 491 pages, obviously more than half short of the "over 1000" called out. We could tweak the caption or we could just ditch the image entirely; given the substantial majority of proposed image hooks end up running without one, the latter might be more realistic. (As for billing, last billing is actually quite good -- the "quirky slot" tends to be very popular. Anecdotally from my experience prep building, it's the spots in the middle you don't want.) Vaticidalprophet 15:47, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
- Greatly appreciate the review. I don't have an actual turn result from Empyrean Challenge. However, I assume they printed on both sides of a sheet of paper or their mailing costs would have been tremendous (and the backside of this actual turn sheet appears to be bleeding through). Thus, this photo would show a turn result of 982 pages (double-sided), or just under 1,000. (Perhaps the description should note the assumption of double-sided printing though.) I am happy to retake and upload a photo at exactly 500 pieces of paper (1,000 pages) if you think best. Would only take a few minutes. If you think the image itself is not useful to draw readers in, that's another matter, of course. As for where listed, I defer to you as I am not a DYK expert. The play-by-mail games on DYK historically tend to fall in the middle, so I'd advocate wherever this one can get some visibility given it is the main one in the genre. Greatly appreciate your time and standing by for your thoughts. Airborne84 (talk) 20:49, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
- I uploaded a new photo above with 500 sheets representing a 1,000-page turn result and clarified that in the image description. If you think that will help with the hook, great. If you think otherwise, I defer to you. Airborne84 (talk) 21:47, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
I am happy to approve this article for DYK, with ALT1 as the approved hook. It hits all basic eligibility criteria, has a succinct and quality hook the article agrees with, and an appropriate QPQ has been completed. Prep builders encouraged to listen to suggestions about image use and hook placement. Vaticidalprophet 02:09, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
- I uploaded a new photo above with 500 sheets representing a 1,000-page turn result and clarified that in the image description. If you think that will help with the hook, great. If you think otherwise, I defer to you. Airborne84 (talk) 21:47, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
