- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 14:53, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
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Ricot Joseph
... that Ricot Joseph was the first Haitian to play in the NFL?
- Source: PFR
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Littlehampton libels
- Comment: Will do QPQ within 24 hours.
5x expanded by BeanieFan11 (talk).
Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 253 past nominations.
BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:40, 3 October 2024 (UTC).
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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Hook eligibility:
- Cited:
- Interesting:
| QPQ: Done. |
Overall: 
Is there a non-primary source that supports this? Hooks shouldn't solely be based off primary-source database lookups. Also, there might be limitations on how far PFR database goes back. Someone might also be Haitian without being born there, e.g. parents, naturalized, etc. —Bagumba (talk) 10:09, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- The hook could be "... that Ricot Joseph was the first Haitian-born NFL player?" – there does seem to have been a player of Haitian descent before him (Jocelyn Borgella) – but PFR is likely right in that he was the first from Haiti (unless somehow they missed someone from between 1996-2001 which I highly doubt). There's also this book with a list of Haitian-born NFL players and by looking up the others mentioned he played the earliest. Thoughts @Bagumba:? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:36, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- @BeanieFan11: I have a couple major concerns. One is that a DYK fact should be deemed interesting enough for a secondary source to have mentioned. Especially for sports, where a bevy of factoids can otherwise be queried from a database. The second concern is that neither list is definitively complete. That's where prose saying he's the first at least has the assurance that the author implicitly vouches for the statement. IIRC, DYK is also becoming more strict on "first" hook sourcing.—Bagumba (talk) 19:00, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- Is there a requirement that
a DYK fact should be deemed interesting enough for a secondary source to have mentioned
? Both are very likely complete for this topic; we know that Borgella was the first person of Haitian descent to play in the NFL, which would require someone having been born in Haiti to play in between 1996 to 2001 which both the book and PFR to have not noticed, which seems very unlikely. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:41, 18 October 2024 (UTC)- @BeanieFan11: I'd be more lenient on a DB-listing citation like "ranked #X in a prominent ABC category', as I'd presume it's in a secondary source somewhere too. In this case, we're talking about the "first", which requires a complete data set, and I'd want a secondary source mentoning it to lend credence that said listing is deemed comprehensive and reasonable. It also demonstrates that some writer thought it was interesting. This is combined with seemingly growing DYK sentiment for improved sourcing on "first" claims e.g. at this current DYK thread:
This is a "first" hook which requires exceptional sourcing
. I can take it to WT:DYK, if you think wider input is helpful.—Bagumba (talk) 11:35, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- @BeanieFan11: I'd be more lenient on a DB-listing citation like "ranked #X in a prominent ABC category', as I'd presume it's in a secondary source somewhere too. In this case, we're talking about the "first", which requires a complete data set, and I'd want a secondary source mentoning it to lend credence that said listing is deemed comprehensive and reasonable. It also demonstrates that some writer thought it was interesting. This is combined with seemingly growing DYK sentiment for improved sourcing on "first" claims e.g. at this current DYK thread:
- Is there a requirement that
- @BeanieFan11: Alternatively, a hook about declining a full scholarship to walk-on seems somewhat interesting. Maybe can even mix in making the NFL to that (not a must).—Bagumba (talk) 11:47, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Bagumba: So, something like ALT1 ... that college football player Ricot Joseph declined a full scholarship so he could be a walk-on? ([1]) BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:03, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- @BeanieFan11: I have a couple major concerns. One is that a DYK fact should be deemed interesting enough for a secondary source to have mentioned. Especially for sports, where a bevy of factoids can otherwise be queried from a database. The second concern is that neither list is definitively complete. That's where prose saying he's the first at least has the assurance that the author implicitly vouches for the statement. IIRC, DYK is also becoming more strict on "first" hook sourcing.—Bagumba (talk) 19:00, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
