User:Djflem/Route 17 BRT

St. John's Park was a 19th century city square and surrounding neighbourhood. what has become known as the Tribeca neighborhood of Lower Manhattan, New York City. The square was bounded by Varick Street, Laight Street, Hudson Street and Beach Street,^[1] also known for that block as Ericsson Place.^[2][3]

The land was part of a plantation owned by an early settler to New Netherland and was later owned by the English crown, which deeded it to Trinity Church. The church built St. John's Chapel and laid out "Hudson Square", creating New York City's first development of townhouses around a private park. By 1827 the neighborhood had become known as "St. John's Park" and remained fashionable until about 1850. In 1866 it was sold to the Cornelius Vanderbilt's Hudson River Railway Company and became the location of "St. John's Park Freight Depot", the railroad's southern terminus. The terminal was demolished in 1927 to allow construction of exits from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey's Holland Tunnel.St. John's Park is the square block in the Tribeca neighborhood of Lower Manhattan, New York City bounded by Varick Street, Laight Street, Hudson Street and Beach Street,^[4] also known for that block as Ericsson Place.^[2][5] Despite its name, it is no longer a park, and is inaccessible to the public.^[6]

The land was part of a plantation owned by an early settler to New Netherland and was later owned by the English crown, which deeded it to Trinity Church. The church built St. John's Chapel and laid out "Hudson Square", creating New York City's first development of townhouses around a private park. By 1827 the neighborhood had become known as "St. John's Park" and remained fashionable until about 1850. In 1866 it was sold to Hudson River Railway Company and became the location of "St. John's Park Freight Depot", the railroad's southern terminus. Since 1927 the square has been the site of the Holland Tunnel Exit Plaza, which like the tunnel itself is owned and operated by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

St. John's Park was a 19th century city square and surrounding neighbourhood. what has become known as the Tribeca neighborhood of Lower Manhattan, New York City. The square was bounded by Varick Street, Laight Street, Hudson Street and Beach Street, also known for that block as Ericsson Place.^[2][7]

The land was part of a plantation owned by an early settler to New Netherland and was later owned by the English crown, which deeded it to Trinity Church. The church built St. John's Chapel and laid out "Hudson Square", creating New York City's first development of townhouses around a private park. By 1827 the neighborhood had become known as "St. John's Park" and remained fashionable until about 1850. In 1866 it was sold to the Hudson River Railway Company and became the location of "St. John's Park Freight Depot", the railroad's southern terminus, which was demolished in 1927.

The square block ^[2][8]

The land was part of a plantation owned by an early settler to New Netherland and was later owned by the English crown, which deeded it to Trinity Church. The church built St. John's Chapel and laid out "Hudson Square", creating New York City's first development of townhouses around a private park. By 1827 the neighborhood had become known as "St. John's Park" and remained fashionable until about 1850. In 1866 it was sold to Hudson River Railway Company and became the location of "St. John's Park Freight Depot", the railroad's southern terminus. Since 1927 the square has been the site of the Holland Tunnel Exit Plaza, which like the Holland Tunnel, is owned and operated by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. The circular interior space of the rotary roadway is still known as St. John's Park. Entry is prohibited.

Let's review the comments from other editors:

• "The roads around the park/square may well be known as St. John's Rotary but the area within is St. John's Park. The "rotary" name seems to be uncommon, while the name of the park appears in many historical documents as well as on Google Maps (Bing and MapQuest don't name it). I think that the article should retain its current name as the most common name for this feature, but inclusion of the rotary name is fine." Pburka (talk) 23:29, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
• "It doesn't matter that it's not a park today. It was a park in the past, and that name still appears to be used for the (now inaccessible) plot of land. I propose that if the plot had never been a park and public square it would not warrant an article. Were it only a series of roads leading to and from the Holland Tunnel we might include a mention of it in that article, but it's unlikely it would have its own page. The reason the plot is notable is because it was once a park (and notability is not temporary)." Pburka (talk) 03:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
• "Most of the article, as it stands, talks about the historical use, which is a park. We could move it to "St. John's Rotary" if we have more details in the article about the rotary than about the site's historical use, and if the rotary, not the park, was the main use for the land. However, the plot has been used as a rotary only recently, and the rotary itself is not very notable, as any other entrance/exit plaza for a bridge or tunnel would be. By contrast, the land's use as a park is notable, which is why the article was created at that title in the first place." Epicgenius (talk) 13:14, 5 January 2015 (UTC)]
• "Most of the article, as it stands, talks about the historical use, which is a park. We could move it to "St. John's Rotary" if we have more details in the article about the rotary than about the site's historical use, and if the rotary, not the park, was the main use for the land. However, the plot has been used as a rotary only recently, and the rotary itself is not very notable, as any other entrance/exit plaza for a bridge or tunnel would be. By contrast, the land's use as a park is notable, which is why the article was created at that title in the first place." Epicgenius (talk) 13:14, 5 January 2015 (UTC)]
• "There is only one thing notable about the highway exit: its history as a park and a railway depot. Contemporary sources and maps continue to call the space St. John's Park, and the rotary isn't notable. That the park is no longer much of a park is irrelevant, as notability is not temporary." Pburka (talk) 03:46, 9 January 2015 (UTC).
• "[1] In the above section, there is a 3 to 1 consensus right now on keeping the article at this title. If you feel otherwise, open a WP:RFC about the page title." Epicgenius (talk) 03:17, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you acknowledge? The consensus is that title of the article be based on the name of the (now inaccessible) plot of land within the rotary, and that the article should be a history of that land, which is notable because it was once park and rail depot.

Djflem (talk) 01:00, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

That: The roads around the park/square may well be known as St. John's Rotary but the area within is St. John's Park. It doesn't matter that it's not a park today. It was a park in the past, and that name still appears to be used for the (now inaccessible) plot of land. if the plot had never been a park and public square it would not warrant an article. Were it only a series of roads leading to and from the Holland Tunnel we might include a mention of it in that article, but it's unlikely it would have its own page. The reason the plot is notable is because it was once a park (and notability is not temporary).There is a 3 to 1 consensus right now on keeping the article at this title.

Yes, I agree, that a large part of what makes the Holland Tunnel Exit Plaza, the Holland Tunnel Rotary, and the circular wasteland still referred to as St John's Park, notable is having such an illustrious past. It's quite remarkable that the name (from which this article takes its title) persisted for so long considering the square itself only lasted for about 70 years and that the church was demolished almost a 100 years ago. The terminal of the same name located there for 50 years until 1927 naturally helped to perpetuate it. (Lot's old-timers still even use Bedloe's Island). And yes, I agree, that the article should focus on the history of the land. It pretty much does that, doesn't it? The overall structure and the basics are there, but there are some details that need looking at. Generally:

• Lead: Some decent Wikipedia:LEADFOLLOWSBODY options presented but Wikipedia:Synthesis still unresolved.
• Colonial era: No reference for Lispenard Meadows, chronology and other details a little off but mostly OK
• Trinity era: Basically there
• Neighborhood: Well not actually about the piece of land, but appropriate for a historical survey
• HRR era: name should be mentioned earlier if going to say the name was used for it successor terminal. Again not strictly about the land, but relevant background, economic, and cityscape info
• PANYNJ era; ref a bit unclear as to when exactly the rotary opened, language about "legally" needs to be fixed, and other POV issues. Best to use this version achieved through consensus through editing on Jan 10th since this is about consensus.

I will reiterate for those who have not been reading or listening, I completely support the consensus as stated above.

and I agree with the statement from the statements you've quoted from other editors:

this edit, Pburka says that "The reason the plot is notable is because it was once a park (and notability is not temporary)."  He reiterates that here.
	+	

• In this edit, Epicgenius says "The land's use as a park is notable, which is why the article was created at that title in the first place". Later, he says: ", there is a 3 to 1 consensus right now on keeping the article at this title".

 "The reason the plot is notable is because it was once a park (and notability is not temporary)."  He reiterates that here.
	+	

and what Epicgenius says "The land's use as a park is notable, which is why the article was created at that title in the first place" and "there is a 3 to 1 consensus right now on keeping the article at this title".

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http://www.co.bergen.nj.us/planning/planning/Bergen%20Rapid%20Transit_Final%20_rev%209-11-06.pdf

Bergen BRT

Route 17-Bergen BRT Blue Line
Legend
proposed 2006
Ramapo College Ramsey Square/Interstate Shopping Center Ramsey Route 17 (NJT station) Ridgewood Park and Ride Paramus Park Fashion Center Garden State Parkway park & ride Bergen Regional Medical Center Garden State Plaza Bergen Town Center Hackensack-Prospect Ave-3 stops Hackensack University Medical Center Essex Street (NJT station) Secaucus Junction

Bergen BRT Orange Line
Legend
proposed 2006
Bergen Community College Century & College Rds. IKEA Garden State Plaza Bergen Town Center The Shops at Riverside Farleigh Dickenson University Hackensack Bus Terminal Bergen County Court House Essex Street (NJT station) Hackensack University Medical Center Hackensack-Summit/Pleasantview Hasbrouck Heights-Boulevard at Williams Wood-Ridge-Boulevard at Windsor Carlstadt-Hackensack St at Hoboken Rd Rutherford (NJT station) East Rutherford-Union at Murray Hill Pkway Meadowlands (NJT station) Secaucus Junction

Route 17-Bergen BRT Blue Line
Legend
proposed 2010
Ridgewood Park and Ride Paramus Park Fashion Center Garden State Parkway park & ride Bergen Regional Medical Center Garden State Plaza Bergen Town Center Hackensack-Prospect Ave-3 stops Hackensack University Medical Center Essex Street (NJT station) Secaucus Junction

NENJmetromob Northeast New Jersey Metro-Mobility Study CONSULTANT ACTIVITY: This study will develop strategies to meet projected transit accessibility and mobility needs and patterns in the northeastern portion of the region and will assess trans-Hudson bus access and mobility issues. This study will recommend short-term transit mobility improvements and will develop a network of buses to serve the study area and increase intermodal connectivity. Both bus access improvement needs in the George Washington Bridge toll plaza vicinity and the need for increased transit options in central Bergen and Passaic counties are included as a place for potential study in Plan 2035, the Regional Transportation Plan. These needs were also identified through the Strategy Refinement effort completed in 2005 and by the subregions through at least four separate NJTPA-funded subregional studies. Each day, almost 100,000 travelers to and from Bergen and Passaic counties ride NJ TRANSIT or private carrier buses to get to work or to other destinations, representing almost 20 percent of the peak period travelers from these two counties. The Northeast New Jersey Metro-Mobility Study will analyze existing and projected study area needs, such as unmet weekend service demands and transit hub/park and ride needs for both bus service and existing and potential future rail service. Buses using the George Washington Bridge to access Manhattan experience significant delays due to difficult weaving patterns in the last quarter mile before the toll plaza. This study will not only recommend improvements needed immediately, it will also analyze the potential impacts of restructuring of bus access to the Port Authority Bus Terminal in midtown Manhattan. One potential recommendation may be for new bus service to other destinations on the east side or west side of Manhattan. Recommendations from this Study might include new park and ride locations, new or expanded bus service to suburban markets (such as to Morristown or Parsippany), or shuttle services for existing rail service. Recommendations will complement strategies emerging from the Northwest New Jersey Bus Study and could complement potential future rail service now being evaluated by NJ TRANSIT along the Lackawanna Cutoff rail line. This will be the final year for this effort, to be conducted in conjunction with NJ TRANSIT. This study was extended into FY 2012 so that the study team could address increased demand for trans-Hudson transit service following the cancellation of the Access to the Region's Core project in 2010. DESCRIPTION: PRODUCTS: Recommended bus service operational improvements and related capital improvements needed in order to meet projected future ridership and mobility needs and patterns. (June 2012)

Route 17-Bergen BRT Blue Line
Legend
proposed
Ramapo College Ramsey Square/Interstate Shopping Center Ramsey Route 17 (NJT station) Ridgewood Park and Ride Paramus Park Fashion Center Garden State Parkway park & ride Bergen Regional Medical Center Garden State Plaza Bergen Town Center Hackensack-Prospect Ave-3 stops Hackensack University Medical Center Essex Street (NJT station) Secaucus Junction

Bergen BRT Orange Line
Legend
proposed
Bergen Community College Century & College Rds. IKEA Garden State Plaza Bergen Town Center The Shops at Riverside Farleigh Dickenson University Hackensack Bus Terminal Bergen County Court House Essex Street (NJT station) Hackensack University Medical Center Hackensack-Summit/Pleasantview Hasbrouck Heights-Boulevard at Williams Wood-Ridge-Boulevard at Windsor Carlstadt-Hackensack St at Hoboken Rd Rutherford (NJT station) East Rutherford-Union at Murray Hill Pkway Meadowlands (NJT station) Secaucus Junction