I rolled back changes today because they deleted a lot of material. Critical quotes gave this piece life, unlike many Hollywood biographies here which are pro forma lists of IMDB credits. I'll certainly admit I could phrase a couple things better, but why remove all this stuff? PedanticallySpeaking 16:20, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
- Your revert was entirely unjustified but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are just misguided about this article's quality. Here are but some of the reasons for the changes I made:
- The critic review quotations are super POV violations and unnecessary in a biography (wikipedia isn't rottentomatoes.com), especially the fact they were all in the very first paragraph.
- Too many wiki links (poor readibility)
- Too many red wiki links (poor readibility)
- The article's tone is more like a six degrees of separation game than a succinct biography
- Related: no need to list every person involved with every play and every movie she's ever been in, for example "David Mamet" as the person behind "Oleanna" is not only non note worthy on multiple levels, overall such referencing detracts from article quality.
- "Acclaim" for film Wicked at sundance is perhaps not only an overstated POV violation, but also uncited. Do we mention plot details for each non noteworthy movie an actor or actress has starred in?
- Which is better POV wise "The role that made her a star was" Vs "Her first major role was"?
- And "Her first major role was" Vs "Her next film was" (original version inconsistent)
- Dates not in the first paragraph or directly related to an article should not be wiki linked in my opinion.
- zen master T 16:49, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Let me just correct that last one - all dates should be wikilinked. violet/riga (t) 16:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I disagree, extra wiki links that no one is likely to click on detract from article quality and also slow wikipedia down. For a celebrity's birthday it is conveivable that someone would want to find out other stuff that happened that day etc, but for random information it detracts from article quality. How hard is it for someone to type "April 4" into the search box? What do you think of my other concerns listed above violetriga? wikilinking should only be applied to "for further information" sort of links, the majority of dates in articles do not fit this criteria. zen master T 17:01, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- All dates should be linked so that they show up as per the preference of the users - for me (and many others) it's horrible to see the day after the month. Linking the dates allows the wiki software to switch it to the style the user has chosen. It's noted at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). As for the other points, yes I do agree that there is a lot of POV text, unrequired namechecks and red links. violet/riga (t) 17:09, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Ok, should I revert Pedantically's revert then? How should I go about perhaps changing wikipedia policy regarding dates? I consider it common sense to keep wiki linking down to just the core essence of an article. The more things that are wikilinked the more it leads to chaos in my opinion. zen master T 17:35, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- The quotes from critics are in line with the policy at NPOV#A_simple_formulation, which says that if opinions are attributed they are usable. As for the dates, it was my understanding that all dates should be in wiki form so users settings will display them in the form they desire, as Violetriga states. I do cite co-stars, directors, writers of films because that tells me something. The one you noted, that the play was by David Mamet, tells me something about the work and if she's doing his stuff she must be well regarded. The sentence about "made her a star" is there because it was not her first lead and it was indeed the first role that was widely seen. Now, I will go consult my commonplace books for some cites for this material, including the Sundance reference. PedanticallySpeaking 17:48, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
- You are ignoring the criticism of massive POV in the article? I do not believe the paragraph the quotations is contained in is inline with wikipedia policy, the POV is outside the quoted text. For example "Hailed" etc etc. violetriga seems to disagree with you above? I consider the clean up changes I made to be obvious. Are you a fan of Julia Stiles or something? zen master T 17:53, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)