User talk:Adachi1939

Hello, Adachi1939, and welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, please see our help pages, and if you can't find what you are looking for there, please feel free to ask me on my talk page or place {{Help me}} on this page and someone will drop by to help. Red Director (talk) 01:39, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to Wikipedia. Editors are expected to treat each other with respect and civility. On this encyclopedia project, editors assume good faith while interacting with other editors, which you did not appear to do at Defense of Sihang Warehouse. Here is Wikipedia's welcome page, and it is hoped that you will assume the good faith of other editors and continue to help us improve Wikipedia! Thank you very much!

Please, when working on pages do not use baseless accusations of vandalism against editors without first having a concrete understanding of what vandalism is and how to approach suspected vandalism.

Hello, I'm Kapitan318. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Defense of Sihang Warehouse, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you.

Some of the sources are genuinely not in compliance with the changes that you made in your revision. I reverted those as the evidence does not wholly support the edits you have made. If you can find additional sources that provides more data please include them in the relevant areas and revise edits.

Examples of the evidence not being entirely relevant to the changes made would be the inclusion of reports that were for the week prior to the event in question and the inclusion of organizational charts that demonstrated only the structural organization of certain kinds of units, but does not discern if any specific unit was tasked solely to the operation.

A similar lack of evidence for the corroboration of the change in the commanding officer is also confusing as no evidence for Haji Kitaro being to top commander for the operation is present or cited. Kapitan318 (talk) 00:10, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please thoroughly read the citations I provided. Citation 1 (JACAR ref. C14120644700) states the Shanghai SNLF 10th Battalion reinforced with the Yokosuka 2nd Independent Company was the force involved in the attack on Sihang Warehouse. Lieutenant-Commander Haji Kitaro was the commander of the Shanghai SNLF 10th Battalion. Although it is common knowledge, Citation 3 (支那事変尽忠録第三卷) also confirms this. There are not any other battalions listed for the operation. Unless a Japanese source for the involvement of a different unit can be provided, the changes will stay. The IJA 3rd Division was not the force involved in the operation. This is a fabrication from Chinese sources without any Japanese sources to back it. I understand it may be hard to come to terms with the Chinese sources being so different from the reality, but it is a common tendency in this field unfortunately. If the Japanese casualties were higher they would be included in 支那事変尽忠録第三卷 as well as Citation 2, but they are not. The entire article should probably be rewritten at some point to remove the exaggerated Chinese claims in combat as well but I don't have the time to do it especially given people are so happy to revert my research/work without actually reading the sources. Adachi1939 (talk) 00:42, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On the issue of the commander and the SNLF, the IJA was the primary and commanding force for the Battle of Shanghai and by extension all operations conducted in the area. I am not saying that the 10th Battalion was not participating in the battle and the operations in the area, but there is no conclusive evidence that they were the only forces involved. If anything you should be adding them in addition to the 3rd Division, which was present in the battle, rather than removing the entry of the 3rd and their commander General Iwane Matsui. Kapitan318 (talk) 01:17, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree the IJA was the overall primary and commanding force in the Battle of Shanghai, I disagree with listing IJA 3rd Division and Matsui Iwane as the commander. Firstly, the Shanghai SNLF 10th Battalion was subordinate to the Shanghai SNLF commanded by Rear Admiral Okochi Denshichi, which itself was placed under Vice Admiral Hasegawa Kiyoshi's 3rd Fleet. Although the 3rd Fleet and other naval forces worked with Matsui's 3rd Division, listing them as directly exercising command over the naval forces during the Defense of Sihang Warehouse is rather misleading. We are still lacking Japanese sources which can certify IJA forces having any direct command let alone boots on the ground for the defense of Sihang Warehouse. So as it stands it was a purely naval operation led by Haji Kitaro's 10th Battalion, but indeed he was not the most senior naval officer in the area.

Secondly, the Chinese commander is listed as Xie Jinyuan who was the 524th Regiment's commander, not the 88th Division's commander. If we were to change the Japanese commander to Matsui or perhaps Okochi, I believe it would be logical to change the Chinese commander to the 88th Division's commander as well. However it could be argued that such a change removes attention from Xie Jinyuan, undoubtedly one of the key figures in the defense. Adachi1939 (talk) 02:36, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The primary issue at hand is that your sources that are provided do not provide significant evidence that suggests otherwise. These documents merely indicate that some personnel were involved in the operation, but that in no way means that they were the sole forces involved in the operation. The act of removing the 3rd division is based on a whim given that you have not found a source directly pertaining to them.

For the commanders it would be best if you did not just go ahead and throw in names you come across without finding a good cross reference that proves they were the officer in charge. Xie Jinyuan was listed as the commander since he was the officer in charge for the belligerent.

Let's continue this discussion on the talk page for the article so that we can get more people to check and verify information, rather than just making changes based on insignificant information.

The sources you have given have been, unfortunately, inconclusive in giving accurate information about the incident itself. Most of the information you have been putting down are assumptions based on information, and while you can certainly have those assumptions, the policy is to post verifiable and factual evidence.

For more information, please reference the following pages.

Wikipedia:Common knowledge

WP:TRUTH

WP:RSPRIMARY Kapitan318 (talk) 04:52, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.orgview_html.php?sq=Qlik&lang=&q=Talk:Defense_of_Sihang_Warehouse Kapitan318 (talk) 04:54, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally please consider the policy for articles on this webpage: Wikipedia:No original research Kapitan318 (talk) 05:00, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article is unfortunately in a sad state of affairs and cannot be mended without original research being conducted. There are very few secondary sources available for the subject in Japanese. The most notable that comes to mind would be Senshi Sosho, which I could use although it's just a less thorough analysis of the same sources I'm using. I will continue this in further detail on the article's talk section as requested. Obviously there is a large gap in knowledge between the English speaking world vs Chinese and Japanese language sources that needs to be corrected. Adachi1939 (talk) 06:13, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please remember to assume good faith when dealing with other editors, which you did not do on Defense of Sihang Warehouse. Thank you. Kapitan318 (talk) 01:55, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]