User talk:Deb/Archive 1

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Hi Deb,

I didn't realise you were a Coronation Street fan! I've just put in an entry for Granada Television which links to your entry. Arwel 02:32 Feb 7, 2003 (UTC)

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i have wist, sin i couthe meen,

that children hath by candle light

her shadewe on the wal iseen,

and ronne therafter all the night.

bisy aboute they han ben

to catchen it with all here might.


Are the above lyrics Welsh? BF 00:48 Feb 8, 2003 (UTC)

Attempting a rough translation: "I have known since I could [not sure about "meen"] that children have seen their shadow on the wall by candle light and spent all night running around after it, trying with all their might to catch it." It's not Welsh, it's Chaucerian English.

'meen' is the modern word 'mind' and, in this context, means 'remember' in Modern English. Mind is still used in this Middle English sense by Modern Scots speakers as in the sentence I mind his mither meaning I remember his mother. -- Derek Ross 16:31, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)


Hi Deb, There is one more problem that has cropped up re use of names and titles, ie., how do you deal with someone who is universally known though the inclusion of a courtesy title in their name but universally unknown without it. A classic example is nineteenth century UK prime minister Lord John Russell. I've made a suggestion on the talk:naming page. I'd be interested in hearing your views. JTD 23:57 Feb 8, 2003 (UTC)


I see what yoou're up to. Good on you. LOL Mintguy

Well, I was here before... er... Deb 21:37 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)


To all involved: Thanks for the help. The song was written by Delerium, musicians from Vancouver, Canada. After scanning Canterbury Tales I noticed it was medieval English style, and the translation by someone is correct. BF 03:52 Feb 10, 2003 (UTC)

Actually, although Delerium released a song ("Aria") which had these lyrics set to music, they were written by a group called the Mediaeval Baebes (their spelling, not mine :) for the song "All Turns to Yesterday" from the album "Worldes Blysse". The Baebes sing the words on "Aria", as well as their own "All Turns to Yesterday". [email protected]


Those two years of school weren't entirely wasted, then!


Deb, first minister is a formal name for an office. Surely in that case it should be First Minister, just as the UK is the United Kingdom, not United kingdom, and President of the United States isn't President of the united states, and Pope John Paul isn't Pope john paul. JTD 18:22 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)


I may be wrong, but I think the name of the head of the government in Wales is called the First Secretary. The type of home rule in Wales if different to that of Scotland or Northern Ireland. There the Legislative Assembly is a law-making parliament, wheras the Welsh assembly isn't, hence if I remember correctly the different title for the Welsh first minister. (I think even the assembly's name is different too!) JTD 19:29 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)


I've just checked and yes the Welsh first minister was called the First Secretary or 'Prif Ysgrifennydd y Cynulliad' (Section 53.1. of the Government of Wales Act, 1998) but seem to have been de-facto changed (though without legislative enactment that I can find) to First Minister (though both terms at different times are used in press releases and in media coverage. I know in British cabinet status a Secretary of State is higher in status than a minister, but in terms of home rule governments, the opposite is the case; a first minister is, you could say a Grade II prime minister - with less powers than a full prime minister, but still with a position as heading an executive - whereas the First Secretary was meant if a prime minister at all to be a Grade III prime minister, inferior in powers and status to the First Ministers and with committee-style cabinet inferior in status to the govts in Scotland and Northern Ireland.


In Ireland, civil service heads of government departments used to be called 'Secretary to the Department of {name}' but because internationally at conferences they were often treated as being an ordinary secretary (one was notoriously asked what his typing speed was!) the position was renamed 'Secretary-General'. Something similar may have happened in Wales. (I'm putting a copy of this message on the talk page of first minister). JTD 00:16 Feb 15, 2003 (UTC)


yeah. Bill's quote should be somewhere. Tell me, on the issue of how to refer to football/soccer, do you think the solution is [football (soccer)]? (BTW, did you see the page I created on [Papal Tiara]? How do you think it turned out?) JTD 22:29 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)


No worries about the singer-songwriter thing. I must've made that awhile ago when I made a bunch of similar lists for various genres in the hopes of keeping list of rock and roll performers down to a manageable size. I actually could've sworn I hadn't made one for singer-songwriters. Tokerboy

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Hi Deb,


Sorry but I don't understand your qualification of the term Violinist. What is a non-classical violinist called? Enquiring minds want to know! :) Nevilley 00:20 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)


--See User talk:Nevilley for response...


On the subject of violinists, the word "fiddler" is one often applied to someone who plays the instrument in a non-standard way - as jazz and pop musicians tend to. I know it's rather an old-fashioned term now, though. But you rarely (or do I mean I rarely?) hear, for example, the violin player in a pop group (another old-fashioned term, I suppose) being referred to as a "violinist". Deb 17:32 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)


Thanks for the response. I hear fiddler used in the classical sphere too though, although it is a somewhat informal usage. I honestly don't think, with respect, that your differentiation works as it stands. Certainly there is a shortage of usage at all in non-classical stuff, because they don't do that much, but I think it is perfectly normal to speak of a rock violinist, a jazz violinist (I certainly wouldn't call Stephane G anything else), a session violinist etc. I would not speak of someone being a rock fiddler, that would be very odd: jazz fiddler? hmm maybe but has odd resonances. The only field in which I think fiddler is normal rather than an almost-jokey, deliberately informal usage, is in folk music where it is pretty normal. But even then I would not be surprised to hear "Bosnian folk violinist" alongside "Bosnian folk fiddler", not at all. Bluegrass fiddler I suppose would be more normal than bluegrass violinist?? My view fwiw is that it needs a mild rewrite saying that violinist is a normal and formal term in most or many spheres, and that fiddler (or fiddle player, which is common too - fiddler sometimes sounds like someone who is doing what you'd like your toddler to stop doing while they are meeting the head of the playgroup for the first time, but I digress) is informal, jokey (or studiedly informal) in the classical field and sometimes used in some non-classical contexts, notably folk. Oh dear, I have gone on a bit. Nevilley 18:10 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)


Right, I've had a go. Naturally my new version is superior in every way and any fiddling (oh hahah) with it will lead to flame wars, death threats, legal action etc etc. :) Nevilley


btw do you know the people who do the Historic Houses and their Families books, for Pembs, Cardiganshire etc etc? Sounds like your sort of department, judging from your user page. Just curious, Nevilley


they're at http://www.brawdybooks.com/ Nevilley 18:55 Mar 1, 2003 (UTC)



hi, deb. I'm just wondering - are you the same deb as on a-i.com? I think I called myself robot5005 or danielehrenberg there. - Anonymous56789 22:17 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)


(Just in case anyone else is wondering -- no, I'm not.)


Hi Deb, your vote is earnestly sought on Wikipedia Talk:Manual of Style (lists). As you know, Susan Mason is determined to change all the lists around to her way. The debate has been moved to this page and votes are earnestly sought. STÓD/ÉÍRE 21:23 Mar 9, 2003 (UTC)


Hi Deb,

You missed an almighty row on the naming of the emperors of Japan. Not alone have they screwed up the naming system by producing names that are unrecognisable outside Japan, and refused to accept any mention of Japan in the title, Taku also created so many multiple redirects the whole thing is a mess. He changed things from Emperor 'x' of Japan, then 'x' Emperor, then 'x' emperor. There are redirects to redirects to redirects. One page sent me around in circles; I had to hit the edit page button to be shown any text at all. The whole thing is a shambles and I'm mega pissed off. Now Taku is trying on the Hirohito page to say that Japan isn't an empire at all but some sort of republic. I've culled the stupid line a couple of times but I won't be surprised to see him re-insert it. (*sigh*). So having turning naming rules on their head and screwed up redirects he now wants to screw up elementary political science definitions!!! Sometimes I wonder why I even bother! A pretty pissed off STÓD/ÉÍRE 19:42 Mar 13, 2003 (UTC)


merci! Most appreciative. I've busy messing around with photographs on the pages on Irish presidents. I came across one old photo of a cabinet assembled with the President of Ireland in his residence. Low and behold (an Irish expression) but didn't three of the cabinet themselves become presidents later on. So that one snap got me four thumbnails - tiny but useful all the same until I get something better. The picture is a pile of photographs a guy bought from the widow of the photographer. The photographer is long dead, his widow thought he had copyrighted them decades ago but she neither knows, remembers or cares. The new owner knows some of them belonged to an Irish newspaper group that went bust a decade ago, having sold some of its archives, lost a lot and had what was left 'taken' back by the original photographers, who raised the library in lieu of outstanding wages! (Hell, I've just remembered, those bastards in the Irish Press owed me money too, a whole £50!) So the Irish Press neither knows nor cares any more - it consists of two men (who sank the once great newspaper group!) who together form the board of the nominally existing group and still own three valuable titles, but which are useless to them because no-one will touch them as long as those SOBs are within 100 yards of them. So they have their AGMs in some toilet cubicle somewhere and award themselves 3 pennies in wage rises every quarter. So the guy who now owns the pictures says it is OK to use them. So that is what I have been doing all night - cropping pictures, downloading pictures, uttering expletives when they turned out so small and then thought of a new way to use them! Oh well. Time to go. Slán. STÓD/ÉÍRE 11:14 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)



Oh. when i was young i loved the US press. No more.


But that's not why I'm here.


Deb. I love your contributions!


No reply necessary. Arthur 03:06 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)


I agree totally. I find the 'style' rule that lower cases words like 'king' irritating. It clearly breaks the rules of grammar. I often wondered where it came from and when I write my own books I make a point of ignoring that rule and telling my editor 'don't dare change that'. BTW, what is you view on using 'duc de Magenta' rather than Duke of Magenta for Patrice MacMahon, duc de Magenta. I originally entered the page under that title but Montrealais and Zoe are unhappy. I am a stickler for rules in some areas but it seems pointless to rename French titles that are so close to the english that their meaning is obvious. We always called him duc de Magenta in history classes, just as we said Comte de Chambord never [[Count of Chambord]]. Changing titles from their native language where their meaning is absolutely clear and on occasion pronounced almost the same seems to me a bit OTT. There are far worse errors out there on wiki. In addition, MacMahon's name is already a strange mix of french (Patrice) and Irish (MacMahon) - the english version should be McMahon. Having a french first name, Irish language surname and an english title seems to me liable to make a complete mess of his name. It doesn't bother me that much but I think it would be a pointless change when 'duc' is clearly 'duke'. Any thoughts?


(I see others are now complaining to Taku about the complete mess that is the naming of Japanese emperors now on wiki, BTW. People are finding broken links everywhere, but Taku still insists he shouldn't have to fix all the chaotic links everywhere he has created!)

I'm sorry about turning Bernice Rubens into an English author, especially after all that English literature talk. Thanks for fixing my mistake. --KF 22:46 Mar 24, 2003 (UTC)


I see The Cunctator is unilaterally changing slogan titles all around the place. Should be arrange a full vote on the Talk:slogan page? I've made my explanation for why we should use [[Slogan {name}]]. STÓD/ÉÍRE 21:46 Mar 25, 2003 (UTC)


Deb, countless figures are known for their last name. It is quite common and regular for last names to be used to identify historic and pop culture figures. With that in mind, criteria have been laid out to list only those popularly known by a one word nickname, a one word first name, their only known name, a one word stage name or pseudonym, or a one word pen name. Liberace is the last name of Wladziu Valentino Liberace. Lichfield is the last name of Patrick Lichfield. Houdini is the stage name of Ehrich Weiss. Kingturtle 23:02 Mar 30, 2003 (UTC)


When the said person first came on to wiki, some wiki people compared the pages being edited to pages of previous infamous individuals and came to the conclusion that we were experiencing a charge of another of the Lir brigade. But as was noted by some people, the latest version (if that is why there are) was polite, helpful and constructive, leading people to presume that the renaming was a case of turning over a new leaf. But in the last few days, the person in question has turned up on pages and started numerous pointless fights, including that WWII page. They have revolved around lists, what should be on lists, not using titles, etc etc. (Sounds familiar eh!) It seems like a return to the SM, VC etc editing styles of deliverately and provocatively annoying people, usually with a screwed up understanding of the facts behind it. *sigh* It is also noticable that SM turned up and blanked 'her' talk page then disappeared again in the last day or two. In Irish folk mythology, we have a story called the Children of Lir. It seems like wiki has the same infestation. STÓD/ÉÍRE 20:01 Apr 6, 2003 (UTC)



Susan is acting the ass on the Bolingbroke page. Why is 'susan' still not banned? She was banned at Lir, banned as Vera, is causing rows all over the place as Susan and as Dietary Fiber. Adam shows no sign of changing his personality under his various names. He should simply be banned. At this stage, I'm not going to call him by any of his other names, just Adam. What do you think? STÓD/ÉÍRE 21:51 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)


Hi Deb, just added an image to Margaret Douglas. Usually I work in the german Wikipedia, I'm not so into english writing. Regards --CCD


Hello, my less irritated friend, not that Adam has gone (Allah be praised!). I've come across a few naming problems re senior clerics who are so widely known by {title} {name} that most people wouldn't have a clue what their actual first name was. I've made my suggestion for a naming convention re senior members of the clergy (specifically in this case Roman Catholic cardinals!) on the Naming Conventions (Names and titles) talk page. Have a look and see what you think. Slán STÓD/ÉÍRE 03:56 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)


Shhh . . . listen . . . . silence . . . NO ADAM VANDALISM!!!! Yippee! STÓD/ÉÍRE 03:56 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)


Re: non-fiction title - In America that is what is used by most media to lump together anything that is not fiction. Don't know why, but probably because its "fast-food."



Hi, Deb,


Hope my e-mail didn't startle you. I'm unused to this communicating with other users and thought that was the only option I had. That's also why it took me five days to get your comment. Jfitzg



Hi, Deb


Thanks for the hello - I'm new here and enjoying being here. If I'm going wrong, please put me straight on anything. As I saw your message, I was pondering tidying up the John Milton article - a short stub followed by an insertion from Schaff Herzog. djnjwd


Hi Deb,


apparently Arno has a 'thing' about renaming Russian royals in russian. I've had to revert his version of Nicholas II twice. I've gone through Tsar Nicholas II's children and renamed them also, as Tsarevich Alexei, Grand Duchess . . . It might be worth keeping an eye out for any revertions or changes in the area by Arno. He appears either not to know about the naming conventions or thinks they don't apply to him. i'll keep an eye on them too. I also renamed Nicholas II's mother Dagmar of Denmark which I don't think Arno will be too happy about. But that is the way she is staying, whether he likes it or not. And at 6.44am, with dawn breaking through my window, I'm going to bed. Oiche Mhaith ÉÍREman 05:39 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)


I wrote a detailed note on his page explaining the rules to him so everything should be clear. Yeah, he seems a decent guy. He did rename all the monarchs on the Romanov page in Russian (aaagh!) so I am going to have to rename them. ÉÍREman 19:28 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)


Deb, could you take a look at the abortion page? I had some complaints from people I know in both the pro-choice and pro-life movements who thought it ineffectual and lacking in depth. I did a rewrite and showed it to people on both sides, as well as basing the rewrites on an academic who have an NPOV course on the issue. All sides were very happy with the rewrite and said it had much more intellectual depth and raised what the academic in her course called 'thought points'. But Sirub is unhappy and keeps reverting to an earlier version that all sides who I showed it through think weak, unfocused and mediocre. I would welcome your views. ÉÍREman 19:58 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)

haha, i was just joking about Peter Blake's fame. :-) Tristanb 11:29 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)



Thanks for doing the dirty work of merging zealots' info into zealot. :) -- John Owens 17:00 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

Despite my best efforts, I cannot find birth/death dates for John Gilpin. ;)

Hephaestos 17:11 May 5, 2003 (UTC)


Nice expansion on the Janet Suzman article. I had found that she was a "relative" of Helen Suzman, but not what the relationship was. Thanks. -- Zoe

Berkhamstead is an orphan. Also, in which country is it? Would you be able to find an article or two to point to Berkhamstead? :) Kingturtle 06:48 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

I don't suppose you would like to help me grap the election data for 2001 of the BBC website. Then get it all on to wikipedia? (as i am too lazy to do it all on my own) -fonzy

No, I wouldn't.


I decided to change the name in 'honour' of the new server. :-) FearÉIREANN means man of Ireland in gaelic. (I'm damned if I can remember of the word for man is 'fear' or 'fearr' though I think it is the first one.) It basically is ÉIREman in gaelic. Re the royal names: don't worry. I know you are just trying to get things right. I think we can be proud of the fact that for all the problems, royal titles is perhaps one of the best areas on wiki, where we have produced a high quality of accuracy of encylcopædic standard. FearÉÍREANN 23:10 16 May 2003 (UTC)

Deb
I confess I can think of no historic mice<G>. But: with a name-change to List of historical rodents... what of the Little Gentleman in Velvet, the mole that raised the mole-hill against which the horse of William III stumbled at Hampton Court, eventually leading to the king's death? The Jacobite's used to toast the Little Gentleman in Velvet during the reign of Queen Anne (I wonder with what beverage?). Or perhaps someone will think of a historical mouse<G> -- Someone else 22:43 17 May 2003 (UTC)

Drat! A perfectly good solution ruined by oververification! I don't think there's a compelling need for "List of historical insectivores". -- Someone else 22:55 17 May 2003 (UTC)