- The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The list was not promoted by Giants2008 15:26, 28 August 2012 [1].
- Nominator(s): - Vivvt • (Talk) 15:02, 23 July 2012 (UTC); User:Animeshkulkarni[reply]
I am nominating this for featured list because... the article has a great potential to be one. - Vivvt • (Talk) 15:02, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ Talk Email 12:33, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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Comments
- The logo can be cropped to meet the non-free media policy.
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:12, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Remove the gallery section as per WP:IG. You may create a category in Wikimedia commons for that, and then link the category in the external links section.
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:12, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- @Vaibhav, Most of the award ceremony articles have images of winners on the side. See sample 82nd Academy Awards. But the images in this article were added below because of the lack of space. Is that still not acceptable? §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 17:01, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- It is, but a whole gallery section with too many pictures makes it too distracting. And also, you will have to add alternative texts for each image, which can be a tedious task. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ Talk Email 17:07, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Remove the unnecessary external links.
- All the sources mentioned in the external links are official sources except other resources. This is done per another FL 82nd Academy Awards. Are you explicitly looking for something to be removed? - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:12, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "Entries of dubbed/revised/copied ... by the Central Board of Film Certification." There is no source for this whole part.
- done. This was pointed out in Peer review and was explained then and there. But still I have added source to avoid further confusion. - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:12, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Ref 4 doesn't support a huge part of the first para of the Awards section.
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:12, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "Introduced in 1969, the birth centenary...its growth and promotion." No source for this.
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:12, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Try to avoid words like eminent, which make the article non-neutral.
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:12, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- There is a cn tag in the article. Please fix it.
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:12, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- No source for the whole Golden Lotus Award section.
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:12, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:12, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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- Support Good work overall. The prose seems fine to me, but like always, a copy-editor may find some problems. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ Talk Email 12:33, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed, it appears that the prose needs tweaking (even though I'm no copyedit expert :P). For example, sentences like "With six categories awarded with 'Swarna Kamal' (Golden Lotus Award), rest were awarded with 'Rajat Kamal' (Silver Lotus Award)" are monotonous and do not exactly flow with the rest of the prose. Secret of success (talk) 15:05, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Have not read the whole thing. However, prose issues are apparent from the beginning.
- Very short, one-sentence choppy opening paragraph in the lead.
- "With total 392 entries submitted for the three award sections; Feature Films, Non-Feature Films and Best Writing on Cinema; eight different committees consisting of 41 jury members were instituted in order to judge the various entries.". The use of semi-colon is probably not very usual. Two unspaced emdahses can be used instead. "In order to"-- discouraged by good copyeditors, just "to" is fine. Indeed the whole sentence structure can be changed here: Eight different committees consisting of 41 jury members were instituted to judge 392 entries in 3 award sections—Feature Films, Non-Feature Films and Best Writing on Cinema.
- done - §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 07:00, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "... was awarded as Best Book on Cinema; whereas an Assamese film... " Whereas not needed.
- done - §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 07:00, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "...to a Bengali actor Soumitra Chatterjee...". To "the". Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:19, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- done - §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 07:00, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Query: Regarding copy editing i had two doubts:
- About capitalization: Should award category titles use sentence case or title case? For categories like "Best Promotional Film" i feel title case is apt. But for main categories of "Feature Film", "Non-Feature Film" and "Best Writing On Cinema", what should be used?
- Hindi titles of the awards are included in single quotation marks e.g. 'Rajat Kamal' (Silver Lotus Award). Is that okay? Or should "double quotation" or italics be used here? §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 07:03, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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- done - §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 11:58, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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- In the peer review i had said; "As to being an article or a list i couldn't find any previous discussions related to awards. There have been similar discussions somewhere for List-of-episodes with no definite conclusion. But still majority of such pages are under lists. I could not find any year-wise award related page under "article". Even if the content has more prose, the basic page is a list of awards. But if consensus is different i am okay with categorizing it that way." §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 14:37, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- done -§§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 08:18, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the lead needs to be referenced. You have 2 unsourced paragraphs in the Awards section. "The court imposed 2000 on the petitioner for moving the court without ascertaining the facts of the case." Ref should at least be repeated. Afro (Talk) 10:01, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- All info the lead is already referenced in the article below per the usual practice. It also does not contain any quotes, which are usually referenced even if present in lead. Are you looking for any particular line in lead that is missing reference? Have added references to those 2 paras. Just repeated them. Same with court thing; just moved the reference. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 10:55, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- On review I think the sentence regarding how it was broadcast could likely be challenged. Afro (Talk) 12:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Rearranged the references for the broadcast. - Vivvt • (Talk) 03:56, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on prose in the lead only.
- No need to have 59th in bold.
- Should we not bold the complete title 59th National Film Awards per MOS:BOLDTITLE than just 59th? I'm not sure if we need to reformat the lead. - Vivvt • (Talk) 02:32, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- No, see WP:CONTEXTLINK, we don't actually need to partially or entirely bold lead links. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:53, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- C of Indian Cinema doesn't need to be in caps.
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "for the year 2011" no need for "the year".
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "For Feature Films section" -> "For the Feature Films..."
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "For Feature Films section, the award for the Best Feature Film was shared by two films, ..." repetitive use of "film" three times in about 14 words.
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 02:32, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Similar comment applies to the next sentence which has film about five times.
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 02:32, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "which is regarded as the most prestigious award of Indian cinema" where is this claim referenced?
- Added relevant sources (16,17,18,19). done - Vivvt • (Talk) 02:32, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "award was announced on March 23, 2012 and was awarded " -> award ... awarded is repetitive prose.
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "for his paramount contribution" keep it neutral unless someone has actually said it was "paramount".
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "The ceremony also had its live telecast on" why not "ceremony was broadcast live on television..."?
- done - Vivvt • (Talk) 20:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Rambling Man (talk) 16:10, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Partial oppose
- Print media like "Hindustan Times", "The Hindu" and "Times of India" should be italicized (in refs #1, #13, #30, #31 and #50)
- Done. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Why is "Supriyo Sen" in ref #49 italicized
- Done. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "IBN Live" shouldn't be italicized
- Done. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Ref #63 has neither work nor publisher parameters
- Done. Replaced with another source. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Why is Press Trust of India italicized in many refs
- Done. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- What makes "ejumpcut" a RS
- Done. Replaced with another source. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Italicize "TOI" in the section "Southern Region II: (Kannada, Telugu)"
- Done. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Why is TOI not w-linked in refs #10 and #11, either link all or only the first occurrence; same for Indian Express in ref #9
- Done. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- pp. 156 -> p. 156 in ref #8, same in #34, #35 and #39
- Done. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- refs like this [59][64][65][66][67], [44][45][47][53] and [15][16][17][18][19], should be cite killed
- Those multiple references were added in multiple places because we have received such comments from other reviewers. For eg, User:The Rambling Man wanted references for establishing that DPA is "the most prestigious award of Indian cinema". All awards are referenced to one catalogue. But when subsections were left unreferenced, reviewers have commented like wise. Hence i feel its better to leave those refs the way they are unless we want to keep playing seesaw here. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 09:40, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Certificate Only ->Certificate only
- Done. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Best Writing On Cinema -> Best Writing on Cinema
- Done. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "Ministry of Information and Broadcasting" and "Amitabh Bhattacharya" are linked twice in "Award ceremony" section
- Done. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- USD conversion of ₹ 2000 is needed
- Done. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Link "Siri Fort Auditorium II" appropriately
- Done. No direct link found. Linked to Siri Fort.- Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Many paragraphs are inadequately sourced; For instance, sentences like "Submissions were requested to be submitted on or before January 17, 2012" needs to be cited separately
- Done. Please let us know if any unsourced/inadequately sourced content found. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- There was a delay in announcing the Dadasaheb Palke Award this year. A mention of that could be made
- Phalke Award is always declared later. That should not be considered as delay. - Vivvt • (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
—Vensatry (Ping me) 07:49, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think so. They are announced well in advance before the other awards. I still remember K. Balachander's name that was announced on 29 April 2011 where as announcement of other awards were made only on 19 May. Unlike the previous years this time many contenders were publicly announced (though not officially) [2] [3], [4] and [5]. I'm not forcing you upon this. You may like to add it —Vensatry (Ping me) 05:13, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Those are all speculations i suppose. MidDay reports Pran and E Nageshwar Rao to be contenders. It quotes Supran Sen of Film Federation of India as "The decision is taken by the committee that includes past recipients like Dilip Kumar, Lata Mangeshkar and Yash Chopra to name some." We now know that none of those 3 were jury members. So even if Pran and Rao were "quoted" by Sen (which it isn't per report) it could very well be his guess work. The in.com report says "If sources are to be believed, then the coveted honour is either going to Vyjayanthimala or Pran..."!!!
And as to the delay, 57th awards were announced in September and 56th in January. I don't think they themselves have any time limit on announcing awards of any category. It would be our research to put it that way. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 09:40, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Further comments beyond the lead - still oppose
- "The selection process started by announcing .." not really, "The selection process started with the announcement of..."
- " For Feature and Non-Feature Films, all the films certified by Central Board of Film Certification..." film, film, film....
- "Feature Films were required to be certified as a feature film or...." really?! Sorry but I don't see what this really is getting at....
- "received for Feature Films" -> "received in the Feature Film category"
- "making it the highest in the history" what is "it" here?
- " Non-Feature Films category" -> "The Non-Feature..."
- "submitted for best writing on cinema section" -> "for the best writing on cinema section". Question, why is "best writing on cinema" not capitalised when you capitalised Non-Feature Film etc?
- Especially when you have "and Best Writing on Cinema..." in the next section.
- "With each section having individual aims, Feature Film and Non-Feature Film sections aimed at...." (1) individual aims seems pretty obvious to me. (2) "sections _were_ aimed at"
Just starting the Awards section, but this is clearly in need of a copyedit from someone who knows what they're doing.... Suggest withdrawing and getting a third party to have a look.... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:09, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Though I found a negligible difference in the new version, I have done the above changes. The third point above now reads "Films were required to be certified as a feature film or featurette, or as a Documentary/Newsreel/Non-Fiction by the Central Board of Film Certification." Secret of success (talk) 13:59, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- @The Rambling Man: We had already raised a request to Guild of Copy Editors on 8th August. See here. Unfortunately, we got no response till date. - Vivvt • (Talk) 13:57, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- For the record, we have withdrawn our request from GOCE, and if you have any problems with the article's prose, please list them here. Secret of success (talk) 17:36, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think that's the best approach. This process (WP:FLC) is not designed to peer review articles. They should be of a minimum standard before being submitted here. If you can't get success at WP:GOCE then I suggest you head to WP:PR and get a few reviewers who are native English speakers to go over it a couple of times. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd also like you to double-check the use of those citations, they are so long they are probably copyright violations. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:23, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- With respect, Rambling man, simply making apathetic statements and the usage of phrases like "they are probably" do not add anything to your comments and are a waste of time. If you feel there are problems, please list them here before you jump to conclusions and we will try to address them. Thanks. Secret of success (talk) 12:04, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- With respect, I'm just trying to warn you. I'm no expert, please find one (I have previously recommended User:Moonriddengirl). The comment is not "apathetic", nor is it "a waste of time". I have jumped to no conclusions, merely offered an opinion on lengthy quotes which, in the past, have been made a lot shorter to avoid copyright violations. See the recently promoted Polar Music Prize and its associated FLC as an example of this. Hope that helps. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I have checked the article for copyvios. There are no WP:QUOTEFARM problems, and no significant amounts of reproduced text that would be considered a copyright violation from any document. Secret of success (talk) 12:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So you don't consider "For its witty, satirical and penetrative account of the politics involved in the commercialization of religion in India. Through a wonderfully authentic depiction of village life, mentality and gesture, Deool has a social, religious and commercial sweep, even as it individualizes each of its characters and endows them with a language and space of their own. The film ironically shows the wholehearted acceptance of commodified and clamorous religiosity in a land plagued by all the serious problems the country faces today, and it does so with laughter that is only slightly tinged with cynicism." to be a direct copy-and-paste and the same in nature to problems faced by the Polar Music Prize article? The tables with citations are a 100% copy-and-paste of the PDF article you link, i.e. 100% of the text in the PDF has been reproduced in this list. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:44, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I have gone through the FLC of Polar Music Prize. The same argument that it is a "citation" and hence cannot be avoided in an article about the award applies here. WP:QUOTEFARM is not violated in this instance, and since the quotes given by the NFA committee are always too poetic, the method of keeping only the subjective words inside the quotes is not really useful here. Secret of success (talk) 12:47, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, well I firmly believe that you are violating copyright for no benefit to this encyclopedia. Because of that, and the fact the whole article needs copyediting, I strongly oppose this candidate. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:51, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you suggesting that the citations be removed? The point of the citations is to provide critical commentary, and there have been no explanations as to why it is of "no benefit to this encyclopedia" other than the one that they are long, and hence all their usefulness is digested by this argument. I wish to get Vivvt's and AK's opinion on this, but as of now, my stance is perfectly neutral in order to reduce the heat. Btw, you still haven't elaborated on the copy-editing part, given that all your past concerns regarding that have been addressed. Secret of success (talk) 13:02, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- These kind of floral tribute citations are entirely unnecessary. And what is the copyright status of the document you 100% copied and pasted? I suggest (as I did above) you get a view from someone who is much more experienced in this area than us. As for elaborating the copyedit issue, well, as I said above, I reviewed the lead, it had multiple issues. I reviewed the next section, it had multiple issues. FLC is not a peer review mechanism. I'm not going to produce hundreds more comments about the basics of English grammar which should have been resolved before this nomination was initiated. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The quotes are actually ok as they describe the actual reason for inclusion. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 13:14, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I am okay if we remove the starting "For" from all quotes. That way it won't be exact copy and thats the only cutting-short possible. But i am against cutting it randomly or rephrasing it on suggestions of people from that GOCE group or anyone just because they are native English speakers or whatever. We can't have these editor's researches under names of that Award's qualified jury. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 13:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't suggest that. I suggest GOCE copyedited the main prose in the article, not the floral tributes. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such rule that FLC's shouldn't have too many comments and that peer reviews should be opened once someone feels that there are problems with the prose. Contrarily, it is mandated that an oppose has to come with reason, be it any number of comments. All your issues have been addressed till now, except the copyright part, and since it is felt that more issues cannot be listed, your oppose does not count for that part. Period. You
have to give more detail and comments for doing that and await for the issues to be fixed, instead of just saying that the article has problems.
Secret of success (
talk)
13:40, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- There is a level of expectation that the prose is written in grammatically correct English. I do not have to give any more comments, but I took the liberty of just picking the odd sentence from the various sections to give you an overview of how many issues exist in the article. Please don't just fix these very specific points and wait for more, this is just a demonstration of how much work is left to do before the prose is anywhere close to meeting the requirements of FLC. Here you go:
- "and also had live webcast" - "and was also webcast live"
- "Submissions were requested to be submitted " -> "submissions" quickly followed by "submitted"? Not professional standard of prose.
- "awrd .... was also awarded ..." same again.
- "to a film personality for the outstanding contribution to the ..." -> why is it "the" outstanding contribution? Should be "his" or "her".
- "growth and development of Indian Cinema" why is cinema capitalised this time round?
- "A recipient of Dadasaheb Phalke Award at 53rd National Film Awards, Beneg" -> "at _the_ 53rd...." there are dozens of these.
- "The award for the year 2011 was " -> "year" is redundant here.
- "also awarded with a Medallion for" why capital M here? And do you really need to link it to Medal?
- "awarded at All India as" what is "All India"? Do you just mean "national"?
- "At regional level, each panel was formed with one regional head and four members, with regional head and one jury member selected from outside the region and rest from the region" -> the word "region" appears in this sentence five times. Not engaging.
- "regional head" is like a post, like "regional manager". Hence it is used that way. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 15:00, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well using the same word five times in a sentence is not "professional, engaging prose" which we seek to achieve at FL. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:59, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "Following were the awards given" -> "The following awards were presented".
- "In Non-Feature Film section, 21 films have been awarded " -> "In the Non-Feature Film section, 21 films were awarded..."
- "three films winning maximum number of awards " -> "the maximum" or do you really mean "winning the most awards"?
- "As ceremony marked the beginning of the centenary year ..." -> "As _the_ ceremony..."
- "of Indian Cinema, the ceremony started"-> "of Indian cinema, it started..."
- "which surfaced the fact that " Not even sure what this means.
- Is this helpful? §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 15:00, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Not really. It was the "surfaced the fact" that I was referring to. That's not really English. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:59, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That's the reason why examples of usuage of this phrase in English are given. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 07:47, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't follow. I don't know what "usuage" means, and I don't understand what "surfaced the fact" means. It's not English. It may be poor grammatically incorrect English, in which case it should be fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- @TRM: You can not simply discard it saying "It's not English" when there are enough sources provided. If required, we may also provide online sources from US based site. Please let us know on that. - Vivvt • (Talk) 13:01, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, keep it as it is. Please copyedit or arrange for someone independent to copyedit the rest of the article. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:08, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Not grammar, but a side issue... Overall, the referencing is very hit-and-miss, e.g. what references all the facts about each member of the Central Jury? Two of them have citations, but the other nine don't.
- No one had challenged it so far. Do you have any reasonable challenges to any things in there? Go through the official catalogue first. Most of it is in there. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 15:00, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not up to me to research your article. I'm asking why two out of the nine judges in that section have references. All challengeable facts should be referenced. Please directly reference all of those judges, not just two out of the nine of them. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:59, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(And by the way, if a FL director feels this nomination is far from ready, they can, of course, remove it at any time... our resources here at FLC are light already, without having to copyedit entire articles, that's why we have PR and GOCE...) The Rambling Man (talk) 14:05, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your valuable time. I am sure you have better things to do that read this article. But fyi, PR was done and their comments were incorporated. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 15:00, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well as part of my role as FL director I try to review every list and will do my best to prevent substandard lists from passing. This is one such list. And yes, there was a PR but it was a very poor showing, it barely had half a dozen comments. Compare that the number of comments here. This list is simply not ready. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:59, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- We welcome comments. That's not a problem. But how does the name of this page, whether called as FLC or PR, matter? You were notified of PR and were requested to come and comment then. You did not find time then. So did other editors. Hence the PR was closed and FLC started. Now that you suggest to go for PR again, there is no guarantee that it won't remain dull and dry like previous one and we will be here in same positions a month later. So i suggest you keep commenting here itself. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 07:47, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- It matters because there are two distinct processes. PR is for articles that need help in improving to reach a certain standard (i.e. this list), while FLC is for articles that are of a good standard that need a little polishing to fix. There's no deadline here, so waiting for a decent PR is perfectly fine. I'm afraid I can't respond to all requests to review articles, I do my fair share, but when an article of this poor quality is nominated, I have to strenuously object to it until it's better prepared. So I suggest you withdraw this very premature nomination and ask a native English speaker to copyedit it and peer review it. And be patient if it takes time to happen. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- @TRM: I appreciate your comments and time but then you keep using the terms like "certain standard", "decent PR", "poor quality" etc. How do we know any of "these" till somebody points out the mistakes? I had requested multiple reviewers who were involved in earlier FLCs, including you, but there was no reply even on the talk page to inform about their unavailability. And that's perfectly fine as it may not interest everyone to review. We are OK with copy-editing and other approaches as long as it results in something. - Vivvt • (Talk) 13:01, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry but I think that's a bit naive. Look at criterion 1.... "It features professional standards of writing." Surely by now you can all see that this article is nowhere near a professional level of writing. I've left three large sets of comments already, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. The PR was weak, and you must see that by now given how many comments have been made here at the FLC compared to at the PR... It is not the role of FLC to ensure that article prose is written in grammatically correct English, that's for WP:PR or WP:GOCE. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:06, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- Per WP:CONTEXTLINK, bold links are to be avoided, either remove the bold or the link, this was mentioned before by TRM
- "to felicitate..." I have just had look up what felicitate means as I've never seen that word before, means congratulate according to the dictionary i consulted. This means it makes no sense, I take it you mean to celebrate Indian cinema? If so change it to that
- The word felicitate is an example of peculiarity of Indian English. It is not used in US English, and I am not sure about British English. The word "felicitate" is widely used in Indian English to describe the act of honouring someone/ something in a function or ceremony.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That may be so, but it would be best to use a more common word, such as the ones I suggested above. You are catering to a worldwide audience so it should be easy for everyone to read, readers shouldn't have to look up the meaning of a word,while reading an article. NapHit (talk) 16:58, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think that's an essential criteria for FL/FA/GA or even Stub. Check Template:Indian English. Take it in a positive way. You are +1 in your vocab today. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 17:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Not really. If it's not a widely understood phrase in English then it should be replaced. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "judged 392 entries
submitted
- "shared the award for the Best Feature Film." the is redundant
- Which "the"? You mean second? Should "Best" be not preceded by "the"? §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 15:08, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes the one before Best, it doesn't read well, with it in. NapHit (talk) 16:58, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- likewise in the next sentence
- "better known as Dadasaheb Phalke Award" -> the Dadasaheb Award
- That whole sentence reads awkwardly, not sure about the best way to structure it, perhaps "The Dadasaheb Award, regarded as the most prestigious in Indian cinema, was also awarded at the event"
- "was felicitated" this word again! recognised would be a better word, not everyone has such a wide vocabulary, so best to cater for all readers
That is just the lead, haven't even touched on the rest of the prose and the citations which are erring towards being a copyvio. I'm going to have to oppose at the moment, I agree with the rambling man, it needs a good copyedit and those citations need checking out. Remember FLC is not a substitute for a peer review, lists should meet the criteria before they are nominated, not eventually meet them someway through the process. NapHit (talk) 14:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Thanks Rambling Man, NapHit, Vensatry and others for the feedback. Yes, the prose is not at the best level. We have made several changes based on the comments of The Rambling man and NapHit. I am not sure if this nomination is still active (it also appears on the failed log). In case it is still active, I would request reviewers to give their valuable suggestions to improve the prose.
For the possible copy-vio, I suggested the main contributor to use quotation marks for the citations of the awards. Will that solve the copy-vio issue? (If we use quote marks, that means we are accepting that these sentences are verbatim from the source). Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 03:36, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment this nomination was archived yesterday by User:Giants2008. I suggest the oustanding comments are addressed, maybe on the article talkpage, and as I've said a few times, a thorough copyedit of the article is made, and some discussion is held with someone who is knowledgeable in copyvios over those citations. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:06, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Ok, thank you. Will address the outstanding comments, and get opinion from copyvio experts. The list has already been submitted to GOCE. Hope the list will be back in FLC soon :) Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:18, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The list was not promoted by Giants2008 19:29, 4 August 2012 [9].
- Nominator(s): ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 06:48, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured list because I believe it meets the criteria. I took this list and split it out of space station, and now I feel that it's expanded enough to be come a featured list. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 06:48, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments that immediately spring to mind:
- The list uses flags, and flags alone, to say what country the station belongs to. This is insufficient.
- You similarly cannot rely on color alone to denote the ones that were unmanned, you have to indicate it also either with text or with a symbol.
- What is "DOS"? Why isn't it linked? Is it the Salyut program? Almaz also needs to be linked. Being linked in earlier text doesn't mean it can be skipped for a table.
- Why do only some of the launches have times? Are the :00 seconds real or just false precision? For example, your source for the time for Salyut 1 says only that it launched at 1:40 UTC, not 1:40:00. I'm not sure we need the times anyway, that's perhaps a little specific for this list.
- Inconsistent use of commas for days in orbit between tables.
- Tiangong 1 is in a table labelled "orbiting and manned", yet has never actually been manned.
- Under cancelled projects, you give the same reason for cancellation in three different ways. This could be moved into the text and that column removed.
- When the flag is replaced with a country, that should get its own column.
- We don't need the See Also section - Salyut and Skylab should be linked in the article itself, and 'space station' is literally the first link.
- All of the above needs to be cleaned up. --Golbez (talk) 14:53, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 06:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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Comments some quick things.
- Avoid bold links in the lead, per WP:CONTEXTLINK.
- Why is Skylab not in italics while Mir is? They're both names of space stations, right?
- Don't need four paras in the lead for an article of this length per WP:LEAD. Perhaps move the last para to above the table.
- "for greater number and length of scientific studies " this reads very awkwardly to me, perhaps ask for a copyedit.
- Don't overlink Almaz in the lead.
- "Skylab viewed from the command module of Skylab 2." no need for the full stop in this caption as it's not a complete sentence.
- Per WP:ACCESS, " Stations with a red background were never manned." needs a symbol (e.g. an asterisk, or †) as well as the colour to denote a particular property.
- "The Soviet Union had two programs running simultaneously" -> "The Soviet Union ran two programs simultaneously"
- Please check with User:RexxS that the table works well with screen readers (per WP:ACCESS). It certainly doesn't comply with MOS:DTT for row and col scopes as far as I can tell.
- " They have Life support systems in place and can be manned." Life -> life. And I would think "can be manned" is obvious from the lead that these are designed to be manned.
- Why have Country as (Private)? Just remove the column and say in the intro that both are privately owned/operated or whatever.
- Moreover, if you insist on (Private) then be consistent, the following table has (private).
- "An image of the interior of Skylab B, on display at the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum." no full stop required.
- "(In orbit 40 days)" but it said it was cancelled, so it was cancelled after it was launched? Make this clearer and cite the 40 days of orbit.
- What does "--" mean for Planned Crew size (and why is Crew capitalised here?)
The Rambling Man (talk) 17:51, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks very much for the comments! Please let me know if you find anything else that can be done. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 01:50, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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Resolved comments from NapHit (talk) 11:27, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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Comments
- Rather than having a single sentence below the table of contents I would add it to the end of the last para
- Just a query, but is there not one single ref you can use for each space station ,in stead of using multiple refs to source each column, no worries if not, but it would make the table look neater if there were.
- Main issue I have is with the referencing, there a few errors:
- ref 1 needs the publication date adding
- ref 4 has no publisher, and what makes it a reliable source?
- ref 7, the hyphen needs to be an end ash, there other instances of this, so I would check all the refs to make sure they use en dashes
- ref 9 has astronautix.com used twice, any reason for this?
- ref 13 is not formatted correctly, there needs to be an isbn number, a publisher and is there an author?
- ref 9 has astronautix.com yet ref 16 uses encyclopaedia astronautic, which one is it? be consistent
- ref 18 needs the parameter
|format=PDF adding to it, likewise for any other refs that are PDFs
- what makes space facts.de, planet 4589 a reliable source?
- All of the information in spacefacts is sourced, just not on the actual pages. Planet4589 is Jonathan's report. Jonathan publishes the logs of missions, I've seen him mentioned in other sources. If you'd like me to find other sources, I can. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 04:24, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- ref 50 has no publisher. likewise ref 51, and not sure what makes either of those sites reliable
- ref 69 needs the author adding
- ref 94, the guardian needs to use the parameter
|work as it is a publication
NapHit (talk) 12:09, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe I've fixed everything. Please feel free to let me know if there's anything else you think should be done. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 04:24, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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- This is one of the most interesting pages I've read on WP--great job!
- Why, thank you. :) ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 00:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The Notes section should appear before References.
- Done - fixed. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 00:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Commons cat should go in "External links". And since it is the only link, you should use the inline variant.
- Done - fixed. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 00:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: these 2 are completely optional and should not impact this list being promoted:
- Lots of white space next to the ISS patch image. Don't know if anything can be done...
- Not done - I'm sorry, I can't figure out any way to fix that. You're welcome to have a go. 17:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- What about adding citations to the "(private)" occurences and adding the company names to the "Notes" section?
- Done - fixed. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 17:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- – Lionel (talk) 01:16, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry it took so long for me to get back, Internet has been iffy. I'll try to fix the optional ones later, depending on the Internet. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 00:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I've handled the optional comments. Thank you for the review. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 17:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from WFC
Resolved comments from WFC
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*First thing's first, thanks for working on this list. I looked through FLC to find something relatively unique to review, and this was one of the ones that caught my eye. —WFC— 04:08, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for the review! I'm glad you enjoyed it. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 17:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I have tweaked the notes in an attempt to provide clarity: the days in orbit statistic updates automatically (so will always be correct as of today's date), whereas the other stats update manually (so will be correct as of the last update). —WFC— 04:08, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I saw that, thank you. You taught me some stuff about references I didn't know existed. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 17:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The first two paragraphs of the lead are good, but the prose could use some work in places:
- I think there should be a brief mention in the lead that Russia, China and private companies are planning future space stations, and a paragraph in the planned stations section which goes into a bit more detail. —WFC— 04:08, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Done - added. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 17:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "The last military-use space station was Salyut 5, which was used by the Almaz program of the Soviet Union in 1976 and 1977." Firstly, I think other landmarks should be mentioned, such as the first space station, first civilian/military space station (depending on whether the first was military/civilian) and so on, although obviously care needs to be taken to try and keep the prose flowing nicely. But also, I'm not sure if this quote is accurate: I remember reading a few months back that China's space program, whilst being conducted for the purposes of civilian research, is overseen by the People's Liberation Army (that was a Western source though, so may have been inaccurate). Either way, I think "firsts" are more relevant than "lasts" as far as military and civilian usage are concerned. —WFC— 04:08, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Done - fixed. I've expanded that paragraph with some additional information. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 17:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That'll do for now. I'll take another look at the prose when these things are resolved.
- Thank you, I await your further comments. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 17:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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Sorry for taking so long to return to this: apart from a brief AWB run yesterday, my activity has been patchy this month for religious reasons.
I have a lot of time for this list. The lead is absolutely perfect for a layman, and the tables go into what looks like an appropriate amount level of detail. But I think this is the sort of list where some transitional text is needed (or in plain English, longer, more detailed text in some of the sections). I don't have enough expertise to give you an exhaustive guide, but will give a couple of examples:
1. I read through the text to see how much of it covered what a space station is actually for (either in general, or a specific space station). In total, we have:
- "Space stations are used to study the effects of long-term space flight on the human body. They also serve as a platform for extended scientific studies. ... Space stations have been used for both military and civilian purposes" in the lead, and in the body: "The Long Duration Orbital Station (DOS) program was intended for scientific research into spaceflight. The Almaz program was a secret military program that tested space reconnaissance tactics."
2. I read through the text to see how much of it covered what could be described as unique, defining or current characteristics of specific space stations, in the broadest possible sense. In total, there is:
- "As of 2012, the International Space Station and Tiangong 1 are the only manned space stations currently in orbit. ... The duration record for a single spaceflight is 437.7 days, set by Valeriy Polyakov aboard Mir from 1994 to 1995. As of 2012, three astronauts have completed single missions of over a year, all aboard Mir", plus the first line of each section.
The lead is perfect: both of the topics I mention are sufficiently touched upon. But for a subject of this depth, technicality and variety I believe that the sub-sections should go into more specific detail about the stations. I'm afraid I don't have enough technical expertise to give you a clearer steer, but it just feels to me that an "expert" (or perhaps more appropriately, someone wanting to use this list as a gateway to learning about space stations), would be found wanting. Regrettably, for that reason I have to oppose at the moment. —WFC— 06:12, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmmm.... OK. Thank you for your kind words. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 12:43, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments from W. D. Graham
- There have been quite a lot of proposed space stations over the years which never made it to orbit, however only three are listed
- The list seems to claim that "rising costs" was the cause of every cancelled programme being cancelled; this is incorrect, and not even cited for the examples given
- ESA and Bigelow Aerospace are not countries
- Some of the stations listed as "de-orbited" [sic] were not deorbited; DOS-2 was never in orbit, and Skylab, Saylut 2, Kosmos 557 and Salyut 7 decayed naturally
- It should be made clear that the three failed stations were intended to be manned
- Soyuz 10 seems to be counted in manned visits to Salyut 1, but not in terms of crew. This should be corrected, or it should be made clear that you are counting the docking failure as a "visit"
- For that matter, how does the list define a "visit"? How are docking failures listed? How about launch failures? And is Soyuz T-5 listed as having visited Mir once or twice?
- "Unmanned" should not be hyphenated
- I don't like the way the table is split between past and current space stations, it makes the second table very short, and messes up the column widths. Could they be merged into a single table, perhaps with the active stations differentiated using a different background colour, or separated by a row in the table.
- I'd rather not combine the two tables, as there are columns that apply to one and not the other. If things continue to go the way they're going, we'll have more rows in that table very soon. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 04:50, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't understand why the programme field is only in one of the tables, and that just leaves decay date. If you switch to a short date format (YYYY-MM-DD), that should save enough space to add it to both. --W. D. Graham 17:24, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Some of the crew sizes seem to include visiting crew (eg. Mir & Salyut 7) whilst others don't (eg. ISS & Salyut 6)
- "Durable Orbital Station" is a mistranslation, it should be "Long Duration Orbital Station"
- MOL was never launched; the 1966 launch was a mockup built using parts taken from Titan missiles. --W. D. Graham 17:24, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overall, this is a very good list, however it does still need some work to meet featured list criteria --W. D. Graham 22:50, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've addressed some of the concerns, but I have to log off now (real life calls). I'll be back later to address the other concerns. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 01:14, 25 June 2012 (UTC) I've addressed all of the concerns now. Please let me know if you think of anything else. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 04:50, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments from Craigboy
- Comments from Wingtipvortex
- "As of 2012, the International Space Station and Tiangong 1 are the only manned space stations currently in orbit." I don't like the sentence 100%. The Tiangong is not currently manned. It has been, and it likely will be again. Or maybe it is not currently crewed... Thoughts on that?
- Fixed - How about "operational stations currently in orbit"?
- "As of 2012, three astronauts have completed single missions of over a year, all aboard Mir." I think it would be very useful if 'three astronauts' linked to who the 3 astronauts were. Also, if they were all aboard Mir, wouldn't they be cosmonauts? Maybe not, I'm not well-informed about the Shuttle-Mir program.
- Maybe also include a number of astronauts that have been to several stations and which ones. Dunno, just throwing that out there.
- Now, a little extra commentary wouldn't hurt, but maybe I'm just thinking too much 'article' and not enough 'list'
- "Space stations that have re-entered the atmosphere" may be a bit too long for a section title. How about decommissioned stations or past stations? You explain prior to the list that they have re-entered.
- Overall, I Support the list becoming featured once the above are addressed. It has a great intro, good images, the lists are well split up and contain good and useful information (who would have thought to find useful information in an encyclopedia :D ) and is very clean (no clutter). --19:40, 2 July 2012 (UTC)WingtipvorteX (talk) Ø
- Additional comment: The timeline of space stations found in the Space Station article may have a place in the list of space stations. Just a thought. --WingtipvorteX (talk) Ø 19:43, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 16:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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Comments –
The hyphen pairs in the first table should be changed into some form of dashes.
Sorting in the last two columns is odd at the moment, and not in numerical order. Sort templates exist and can likely fix the issue.
- Refs 77 and 99 should be moved outside the parenthesis marks.
Planned stations: En dash needed for the Tiangong 3 date range.
Publisher of ref 1 shouldn't be in italics since it isn't a printed publication.
Capitalization of Wired Magazine should be made consistent, likely with the capitalization.
- Page number would be nice for ref 13.
Publisher needed for ref 7. And what makes someone's personal page a reliable source?
- What makes Gunter's Space Page (ref 52) reliable? This also looks like somebody's personal site.
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I'm sorry, my internet has been iffy. I'll continue addressing concerns and update the article accordingly. Thanks for your patience. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 15:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I think I've hit all your concerns, feel free to make any further comments. ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 21:47, 20 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.