Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 1

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I notice that 10 January is available as a redirect to January 10, which is really really convenient for articles on military topics, but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Is there any reason not to create all the others? Stan Shebs 04:32 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)

The only problem I can see is it would be likely to decrease the conformity of dates across Wikipedia, which might be a problem in, for example, biographies. Anyone using 13 February at the moment gets an empty link and can see immediately that that's not the standard way of formatting the date. But this is a small thing, and conformity in date formats might not be important enough to negate the convenience of having the redirects. -- sannse 07:29 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)

My vote? I'd prefer all the dates to be uniform throughout the Wikipedia. -- Anon.

I don't understand -- why do military topics need the "10 January" format? --Eloquence

Accounts of military doings tend to have lots of dates, and they standardized on "10 January 1952" long ago; it looks pretty old-fashioned to read "January 10, 1952". Thinking to find an explanation for the difference, I consulted my Bible, 13th edition, and it says (8.36) "The University of Chicago press prefers that in all text, including notes and bibliographies, exact dates be written in the sequence day-month-year, without internal punctuation", which goes a long way towards explaining why most (though not all) of my recently-published history books have been using the "military" style for all their dates. :-) Stan Shebs 11:44 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)

Fowler also says "10 January". I had assumed "January 10" was the US style, but if Fowler & Chicago agree I think we have to consider changing our own Manual of Style policy -- Tarquin 12:23 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)
While not requiring dates in the "10 January" form The Elements of Style (Strunk & White) states:
The form is an excellent way to write a date; the figures are separated by a word and are, for that reason, quickly grasped.
If we were to change it, there are thousands and thousands of dates in the other form, every biographical article, for instance. Of course, our own software uses the other form, as shown in the signatures here. Ortolan88 15:52 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)
I think it should suffice to allow both forms, add the redirects, and perhaps express a preference. If all dates are habitually wikified, it becomes trivial to convert to a single standard later. (Chicago just expresses a preference, not a rule; my guess is that day-month is today more of an academic/professional thing, and month-day is more "normal". Imagine it in an article about a grunge band, seems positively stuffy.) Stan Shebs 13:05 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)
Hm, no, I don't think so - from my perspective here in the UK "month day comma" seems a strange way to express dates. I have a feeling that it might have been used 40 years ago, but nowadays day-month-year seems normal. Arwel 19:10 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)
On a grunge band's CD sleeve maybe, but an encyclopedia article about a grunge band should be just as serious as any other. It would take a VERY long time to convert all mentions of dates; so even with a change of standard there'd be a certain amount of cohabitation -- Tarquin 15:00 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be easy for a programmer to create a bot to search all Wikipedia articles for [[month day]], formatted links and convert them to [[day month]]? I've already suggested that we should standardize on the international format. mav

Despite having suggested the use of day-month-year, I can't say that I'm 100% keen to try to change to it and/or enforce it everywhere. To take an opposite example, the authors and editors of the 1911EB had very definite ideas about "proper" subjects and "proper" ways to talk about them - and at the distance of a century, it all looks like a curious relic of a vanished age. I think that's why Chicago hesitates to require day-month-year of their authors - I just recently bought a 2000-published book Broadsides: the Age of Fighting Sail by Nathan Miller, solid history, but aimed at a less-technical audience, and it uses month-day-year. Wikipedia aspires to be solid content, but an encyclopedia with dozens of entries on Tolkien characters, comic strips, and video games is really aiming for the broadest possible readership rather than to be some sort of highbrow 21st-century EB. If day-month-year becomes popular, it will be obvious in the new articles that are being added. Stan Shebs 20:30 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)

The esteemed Shebs omits what was the latest thing in dates for the 1911EB, which was the form 19th of March 1821. Ortolan88
Actually, many of us are working towards a highbrow 21st century EB. The Tolkien and Simpsons stuff is just along for the ride ;) It'll be first up against the wall when the Larry sifter project comes... -- Tarquin 20:44 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)
Drifting off-topic, but I do see the range of subjects as a Wikipedia strength rather than a weakness. Classical scholars today would give their right pinkies just to know what the ancient Greeks really thought about homosexuality, all because at the time nobody thought it important enough to document as carefully as Alcibiades' personal failings. In fact, to use the Simpsons as an example, there are important archived software design discussions today that could not be understood 2000 years from now without an explanation of what "Doh!" is all about. Stan Shebs 21:21 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)

Just to throw a simian wrench into the mill (being fresh out of wooden shoes), the reallio truelio military format is yyyyMMMdd; e.g. 2003FEB25. It sorts good, too. --the Epopt

VOTE HERE well, maybe not. Better try the top of the page then!

I thought a vote block might be handy - it's getting confusing keeping track of what everyone thinks... Approval Voting - pick one or more positions :)

Oh please, please do day/month/year. It is pain in the neck doing month/day/year on Wiki when here in Ireland nobody uses that form and everyone writes d/m/y. I keep having to remind myself on non-Wiki stuff to write d/m/y, then on Wiki to use m/d/y. According to my eMac settings

d/m/y is used by

  • Australia
  • Austria
  • Belgium
  • Brazil
  • Canada
  • Catalonia
  • Denmark
  • Finland
  • France
  • Germany
  • Ireland
  • Italy
  • Netherlands
  • Norway
  • Spain
  • Switzerland
  • UK

m/d/y is used by

  • US

y/m/d is used by

  • Portugal
  • Sweden
  • Japan
  • Korea

So if the Mac is right (and I'm going on what the setting say), of the countries listed, month/day/year is purely an American version. Elsewhere, most people use day/month/year. JTD 22:55 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)

True, though my understanding is that the ISO standard date format is yyyy-mm-dd Arwel 01:41 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)

It looks like nobody wants the status quo so I say we need to expand the exposure of this discussion. Hopefully a bot-writer will offer his/her services too. --mav

JTD, we are talking about dates with a spelled-out month here. Nobody wants to use the stupid 04/29/03 numerical format. There are times when it flows better and reads more clearly to say "On the 10th September the king said ..." and times when it reads better some other way. If you want to link to a date, sure, you find out what the Wiki convention is and do it that way so that the link works, but trying to specify writing style in this level of detail as a global policy is a draconian and quite daft idea. Tannin

That's what I'd much prefer to use. The point I was making is that most people outside the US use the format of d/m/y anyway, whether writing it out or in the numerical form. And the computer allows you to have the date in numeral or spelt out month form. It is the natural format whether written or numerical, in most places outside the US.

It isn't natural, it is only conventional. Let's convert February 14 to Day 45 (February 29 can be Day 59-L). You non-United-States-of Americans are so non-United-States-of-Americocentric.  :=) BTW - I have used the 10 January form since I first read about in Strunk & White 40 years ago and so do millions of others in this country without a name.Ortolan88

I don't see much benefits to change the format of dates. My position is always not to much concern about the format because the format cannot be consistent forever. -- Taku 01:16 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)

Besides, it is possible to get new version of wikipedia software have some kind of rendering engine. In Japanese wikipedia, currently there is a discussion about the standard timezone. In USA history, Peral harbor happended December 10, 1941. But in Japan, it did in December 9, 1941. I am using the format like August 15, 2003 JST in Gyokuon housou because the date varies in country. The smart render should recognize some standard format including US style, EU style and display the date in uniform format. -- Taku 01:22 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)

Actually the Attack on Pearl Harbor happened on December 7, 1941 Hawaii time/date. This issue has come-up before many times - it is best to indicate the date and time of the event where it happened. So the Pearl harbor attack happened on the morning of Dec 7, not on the date in Japan, Dec 8. --mav
Just so, Mav. The date to use is the one that appled in the place of significance to the event. So, for most purposes, Pearl Harbor was the 7th of December. But when considering palace politics in Japan (as in Hirohito), the correct date to use is the 8th. Tannin
Then you are talking about a different event that happened in the palace. So same logic applies: The article whose subject is the event in Hirohito's palace would say the 8th and the article whose subject is the attack would say the 7th. --mav
First forgive my ignorance about history event date (I can't believe I didn't when Pearl Harbor happended as Japanese!), what about the declaration of war? In Japan, it is December 7, 2003. In the USA, it is Dec 8, 2003. I guess. (Please please overlook historcal accuracy here). But if you say, this is a really rare case so MoS needn't cover, I can agree. Anyway, sorry this is off-topic.

Some years ago an American student I knew at university went into a panic when she received a note informing her that her exams were scheduled to start on 03.05.91. She went into a severe weekend of cramming (studying for 18+ hours per day), until she was almost hospitalised from exhaustion. Only then did she realise that her exams didn't start on the 5th of March - two weeks from the date she got the notice - but the 3rd of May. The problem was a couple of her American friends initially presumed that the date mentioned was read as dd/mm/yy, but when the saw her reaction, then presumed she must be right and began studying like hell also. And her moment of doubt disappeared when she saw them studying like mad, presuming that if they are studying she must be correct in reading the date as mm/dd/yy. The end result was five extremely exhausted and highly embarrassed American students, who were never let forget their mistake by all other students, who teased them unmercifully afterwards. JTD 01:28 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)

This is a typical example about confusing of dates format. How can anyone be sure about which day is 01/02/03? -- Taku 02:31 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)
Or perhaps five students who, for the one and only time in their lives, started studying for an exam at a sensible time instead of leaving it till the day before to start cramming? - Tannin (Who never started studying for any exam until 24 hours before!)

Now a really dumb question: What dates are we talking about here? Is this:

  • (a) all dates anywhere in the text of any entry?
  • (b) Only dates that are links to a date entry?
  • (c) Just the names of the date entry pages themselves?
  • (d) Dates only in particular circumstances, e.g., birth and death dates in a biographical entry?

Tannin 02:18 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I'd like to know the answers to Tannin's questions too. Catherine
Personally, I'm interested in what to do with all dates in the text of each article. (That's why I'm not so keen to force a change; I'm sure there are bunches that want to be left alone (such as quotes from a book), and nobody's head is going to explode if they see both 10 January and February 28, even mixed in the same article.) Stan 04:39 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)
To quote from the main Wikipedia:Manual of Style (and almost every other publications style book):
A Manual of Style has the simple purpose of making things look alike - it is a style guide. The following rules don't claim to be the last word. One way is often as good as another, but if everyone does it the same way, the Wikipedia will be easier to read and easier to use, not to mention easier to write and easier to edit.
Since there are many thousands of entries in the form January 10, I believe we should just leave it alone. The MOS has many such compromises in it. Consistency is the goal. Ortolan88
Hence my idea for a date bot. --mav

What dates are we talking about here?

Excuse me repeating myself, but without an answer to this question, discussion of anything else is impossible. Tannin 08:36 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)

People who are voting for MoS policy are probably voting for (a),(b),(c),(d), except where in quotes, etc. People who are voting for encouragement are probably voting for changing the names of the date pages, and slight encouragement one way or the other on the dates.