Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 5

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Having British dates and British spelling in articles about British subjects is not a compromise, it's the most convenient solution you can get away with, one which allows you to write your way most of the time. It also leads to massive inconsistencies, as, believe it or not, some non-Brits start pages about British subjects, and even some non-Americans (such as myself) and some Brits prefer the "US" date style. Furthermore, US-style spelling is more popular around the world and most of Wikipedia's users are Americans, so you will inadvertently end up with American spelling in articles about British subjects. So you end up with some pages about British topics which use the "correct" style and others which don't. According to Mav's latest update to the policy page, the opinion of the person who invested the most work in the page should be respected. The result: more inconsistency.
Now I would love a solution that eliminates all inconsistency. But Mav tells me that the Brits will start World War III if this comes to pass, so I won't hold my breath. But a real compromise would entail that the British users of Wikipedia give up at least some of the privileges they cleverly obtained, which would be the case if we kept the Month Day format (which was never changed in accordance with the expressed wishes of the majority of users) the official standard on all pages. This makes me unhappy, because I still have spelling inconsistency on some pages. And it makes you unhappy, because you have to type ugly dates or tolerate that people change them. So it's a compromise. What we currently have is a segment of Wikipedia with different rules: the "UK-pedia". If that becomes official policy, we should take the next logical step, set up "uk.wikipedia.org", and move all articles about British subjects there. --Eloquence 06:06 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I really have to laugh at all of this. Wikipedia purports to be an english language encyclopædia. Yet it is unashamably US orientated. Worldwide most people use British english or variations on BE (including two of the world's biggest states population-wise, India and Nigeria). BE is used throughout every state of the commonwealth as either the the main or a subsidiary language. AE is in a minority worldwide. Yet wiki that purports to an english language encyclopædia is overwhelmingly written in AE, the language of one english-speaking country the US. Most of its articles are written from a US perspective, focusing on US issues, US agendas, etc. And when it comes to dating systems, almost every state in the world uses dd/mm/yy. The main one that doesn't is the US. And which format is mainly used on wiki? mm/dd/yy. Put bluntly wiki is so americocentric it irritates non-Americans mad.

Lets take examples: today's main page.

  • in the news - Harry Potter (written in AE, with AE dating), Same sex marriages in Canada (US dating) monkeypox (This page was recently featured on TV the article says. No. it featured on US TV. Most of the world never saw that.) Martha Stewart (US orientated article using US dating), Eric Robert Rudolph. (ditto). That's 5 out of 5.
  • recent deaths - 3 out of 5 US, 1 brit, 1 Canada. All 5 written in AE with AE dating.
  • New articles - United Kingdom National Physical Laboratory (yippee. Something that isn't about the US. But as it carries no dates it doesn't fit into either camp. Alaska range - AE on an American topic. Gartner - US company written about using AE. Child sexuality - written in AE. But then the article isn't about Child sexuality at all. It is about American child sexuality, and contains a sub-heading America Today. Kenelm Digby - a Brit who lived a full century before the US was created. Yet he is written about in American english, using American spelling, and American dating. 10 Rillington Place - written about a British topic by British people but which Eloquence wants to americanise. (The fact that it is currently in BE and uses rest of the world dates is simply because Eloquence's attempts have been, and will continue to be, reverted.)
  • Historical Anniversaries - June 22 (so we know where that comes from!) Flag of Greenland: AE, AE dating. Midsummer: AE, AE dating. New Hampshire - US topic, AE, AE dating Manchester Mark I - computer developed in the UK, but no matter, AE, AE dating. Tennis Court Oath - about France. Written in AE, AE dating. Flight to Varennes - about France but AE capitalisation but shock of shocks, an article that doesn't have AE dating and instead uses the dating system the French and the rest of the world but the US uses. Woopee! Lizzie Borden famous American alleged murderer; AE, AE dating. Ed Sullivan Show US TV programme, AE, AE dating. GIF - some BE spelling but of course AE dating. Federal Communications Commission yet another US orientated site written for americans using AE and AE dating. Rosenbergs - surprise, surprise, yet another American article about an american topic for american readers using american english and american dating.


So, out of 28 articles on the main page, 2 use the form of dates used by the entire world. The rest, including those few articles that aren't about American topics, are written in a form of date that almost nobody but the US uses. And of those two, Eloquence is determined to turn one of them into US dating, even though it is the work of a non-american, is about a non-american subject and is using the dating system that the entire world other than americans uses.

The funny thing is that wiki claims to be an english language encyclopædia. Except or course that it is anything but. It is written for Americans to suit Americans, using the language Americans like and the dating system they and they almost alone use. And when anyone has the audacity to use a form that the entire world but America uses, all hell erupts, from people who claim that non-standard grammatical idioms, non-standard spelling, non-standard dating, non-standard capitalisation are being forced on wiki. Actually it is wiki who is forcing non-standard english usage on every other potential english language wiki reader outside the US, because to the millions in Britain and in Ireland, the millions of english language users in Europe, the billions of english language users in Austral-asia, India, South Africa and elsewhere, the vast majority of users of english on the planet, wiki's perferred house style is completely alien and foreign.

But then that is simply the tip of the iceburg. The entire world uses the word car. So do any americans. But a lot of americans use automobile. Any guesses under which name the article appears? When non-Americans (and some americans) suggested moving the article, americans queued to say how unfair it was, how it was called an automobile so what was the problem calling it that? During the Iraq war, non-Americans had to fight to get the right usage of the Iraqi dictator's name. The world correctly referred to Saddam, because that is his surname. But some Americans went ballistic and kept trying to calling him Hussein. After all that's what NBC Nightly News called him! The fact that it was wrong didn't enter into it. It was a question for some (not all!) of 'how dare you propose to use a name we regard as his first name!"

When someone created a page on First Lady, it was written as exclusively being about the US First Lady. It never seemed to dawn on people that over 150 countries have first ladies. When I renamed the page to rename it to state that it was simply about the US First Lady, I got told off by someone who didn't see the need. 'Sure everyone knows it is about the US First Lady' I was told. 'The article doesn't need to say that.' Oh really? And how then do we refer to the first ladies in the rest of the world? We have pages and pages of lists about most watched TV programmes and films in a particular year. The lists are exclusively about the US. Yet to suggest that their name be changed simply to saw [[Top Ten TV shows in the US in 1966]] was like committing a heresy. Again the idea that there might be a different list in Germany, France, Nigeria, Russia, Chile or elsewhere didn't seem to dawn on people, just as nobody thought to say in the Monkeypox page that the page had featured on US TV. Billions of people never heard of this. Billions never saw it on their TV screens. But to make that distinction would be seen to be anti-American. One article relating to abortion had the experiences of other countries shuffled off to daughter articles to make way for more information on America. When I complained I was told I was being anti-american and anyway, America's experience was "particularly important". Obviously everyone else's wasn't!

That is why there is such resentment over the issue on BE usage on wiki, and why, as Mav said, there would be WWIII if Eloquence had his way. He seems to think that all the world's english speakers should be made to conform to American english on wiki, and that if somehow that does not happen, wiki will be destroyed by inconsistency. Most of the rest of the world finds wiki's pre-occupation with american english, and with americanising anything and everything irritating. They understand how it can happen, and do not suspect it of being some sort of attempt to force AE on people. It is just that an encyclopædia most of whose contributors are American, isn't always aware of its own americocentrism. And that americocentrism is damaging wiki's ability to be a genuine worldwide-used source book. Why should the rest of the world be forced to read about the history of England, the history of Ireland, the history of Russia, through Americanised articles? While should people from Ireland, who never ever ever ever use the mm/dd/yy format be forced to read their fifth president's birth date in an American format that they no more want to use or see than the British want, the French want, the South Africans want? And all this on an encyclopædia that is supposed to be an english language encyclopædia, not an American english encyclopædia? Why should the British queen have to have her birth date americanised? Why should Nelson Mandela have to have his birth date americanised? It is as insulting to South Africans, the Irish and the British to force them to have their history americanised as it would be for Americans to have their history written in British english. It isn't as if non-American users are demanding that wiki be written in BE. All they are asking for is that a supposedly world-wide english encyclopædia allow the use of world-wide english, rather than force everyone in the world to confirm to what suits americans and a small number of non-Americans like Eloquence.

There is no technical problem whatsoever with allowing articles to vary the date form between the two forms of english. No-one is saying change everything to British english. But if wiki was to follow the date rules of each state in which english is spoken, American english would be restricted to entries about the US and maybe some other states on the American continent. When the issue was debated, it was clear that there was no consensus on any one form of date. But there was clear evidence that many users were deeply unhappy at being expected to use American dating, something which other than on wiki most would avoid using like the plague. It was in view of that the an understanding grew that people could use whichever form they would normally use. The clear impression was left with people that mm/dd/yy, which had always been optional, never mandatory, was now totally optional, with a full system or redirects for every date available. I specifically asked whether I could interpret the debate as meaning either form could be used. I was told, as others were told, that the idea of enforcing mm/dd/yy was dead in the water. I specifically asked whether as of now can I stop using that form. I as told yes, how the redirects were now in place. I suggested that in that case the MoS be adapted to formally change that. I was told that would be done, but in any case the MoS was purely advisory. People had always had the right to ignore it. In fact, of those discussing the issue I was almost the very last one to stop using mm/dd/yy, because I wanted to make sure it was OK and that redirects were in place.

The situation is quite simple. I and all the other people who abandoned the use of the mm/dd/yy format have no intention whatsoever of going back to it. I have no intention of changing any articles to that format, other than those that specifically are about America and so should be in American english using american dates. The solution that whatever Eloquence thinks was agreed in the debate, provided a workable method of dealing with the issue. Eloquence's suggestion of either dropping British english or dd/mm/yy is ludicrous in the extreme. As I have shown, the vast majority of articles written on non-american topics are written in AE with AE dating. It is frankly insulting to tell non-Americans that they must choose between having to write in American english or take american english dating, because they must have one. Non-Americans have put up with a lot in working on wikipedia; I've had people not merely try to americanise things I write but even change things I wrote on talk pages to American english! If Eloquence wants an American english dictionary so badly he can always go off and set one up. But as he seems to be forgetting, this is english wikipedia, not just american-english wikipedia. And the form of english that most of the world uses, and the form of dates that most of the world uses, has as much right to be on english wiki as American english and American dating.

The final words come from the Manual of Style which Eloquence seems to love quoting so much. He seems to constantly miss this bit:

Writers are NOT expected or required to follow all or any of these rules

In the circumstances it is abusive of fellow wikipedians and of a potential worldwide readership to presume the right to americanise the work of non-americans, particularly when the Manual of Style makes it crystal clear that they don't have to write in AE. In view of that, any attempt to americanise the work of non-American users would be in breach of the Manual of Style. If such an attempt is made, it will be undone.

Users of British English have been more than accomodating to American english users. Articles that logically should have been in British english but which were written in American english have been left in that state. Articles on American topics that had a mixture of AE and BE have been converted to AE by BE users. I turned on two line stub into a very large article recently. As it had been started in AE, I wrote it all in AE, even though that meant using spellings and constructions that I would never normally use. BE users have bent over backwards to accomodate AE. And many though not AE users have been similarly accomodating towards BE users. It would be nice if AE users like Eloquence showed the same courtesy for a change. FearÉIREANN 11:49 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Conciseness is a virtue, Jtdirl... Martin
It should also be noted that MoS is a set of conventions not policies. Eloquence has been throwing the "p-word" around in respect to this issue and that is plain wrong. Oh, and I agree that we should tolerate both date and spelling styles. --mav 13:24 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I think it's time for us to put on our Blue Hats and try to decide on a method for finding a resolution to this thorny problem. I propose two votes, one after the other, with a one month fixed polling interval for each, and a one month interval between the two for any procedural objections to be raised.

Note that much is generally agreed on, such as having a maximum of one date format per page, and we don't need to revisit old ground. Similarly, nobody believes that anyone should be forced to write in any particular format