Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2014-08-27/News and notes

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There's a malformed URL at the end of the first paragraph which is missing a question mark; the correct link is Diskussion mit DaB. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:17, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. NE Ent 13:35, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Michael, and NE Ent, who beat me to it. Tony (talk) 13:40, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have read sentences like "The Signpost understands that many German Wikipedia editors agree with DaB.'s actions, although there is evidence that this is not a unanimously held opinion." now a few times in those discussions, and it leaves me always again flabbergasted: Sure there are different opions, after all the German Wikipedia is not North Korea. His act that i don't fully agree upon since it was not setting the Meinungsbild result properly, but approve since it was an act against the abuse of the power of the WMF, was and is debated. As it was the initial poll and everything further. And i have read of other editors who agree that much of the support for DaB. came as reaction of a feeling to be putted in a group together who gets surpressed by the Foundation, not by pure joy of what and how he did. But back to my point: One of Möller's favourite things to state on the Mailinglist is that there also would be people voting against the Meinungsbild proposel and against the disabling of Superprotect in the Umfrage and so on. That is naturally true, since those are not votes like in the German Democratic Republic or in other dictatorships, but democratic votes where also the opposition can take her position freely. What is striking to see is that there is no willingness to see that those polls had normal and then big numbers of participation and a pretty high majority of votes against the WMF position. Möller's mentioning of the small opposition while ignoring the democratic voiced position of a large majority is intolerable to me. And this denial of recognition for the democratic vote of the editor community is what makes me so angry. I find it in Möller's staments, i find it on Jimbo who doesn't see that the Foundation without votes in the communities is not able to produce good software so the democratic element of Wikipedia won't make that so much worse ... And the surprise about disagreement and opposing voters in a democratic project takes me by a surprise that feels not really good to me. But anyway, thanks for the article. The coverage of this topic is needed since the underlying conflict is crucial. --Julius1990 (talk) 14:02, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting for me is always, that the WMF really thinks they act for a mayority of users and the authors who vote against the MV are a minority that understands nothing. Maybe - but these users said what they think, said what they want. Clearly. With a clear mayority opinion (my personal opinion was not by the mayority! But in a democraic system I have to respect the mayority!). But where is the RfC of the WMF? They say, they act for others - but did the really do? Where I can read what they said? What they want? The WMF only states things without any proof. The authors at de:WP had a proof. A democratic proof! I know, that the WMF thinks, we authors act childish. But at the end - this time it is definetly the WMF, that acts very childish. "We know better, because we know, what others want and think, others, we never aked about it...". It would by fine, when the Board and the Office would understand one thing: We, the authors, photographers, volunteers, are Wikimedia!. The WMF is here for us. Not we for the WMF. Without us you all in Frisco would be nothing. And nobody of you would have this job. We are the people who work out with our unsalaried work your paycheck! We don't need to be ruled by the WMF. But you people in the office have to understand, that you are here to support us! Or we don't need you! Marcus Cyron (talk) 14:49, 31 August 2014 (UTC) PS: Why I should be interested in what "Jimmy doesn't support" - he is not the person who has to decide this! The en:WP should start a Jimmy emancipation.[reply]

It's more of a two-way street than that. Without the computing resources that the WMF provides, there would be no Wikipedia, and we editors would not be able to accomplish anything. Also, most of the money that supports the WMF comes from readers, not from editors. The MV was specifically designed to give a better experience for readers, who don't participate in votes. Looie496 (talk) 15:07, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What generates the big amount of donations is the content of Wikipedia, not the software. Without the content, noone would take notice of the work of the WMF. So of course the power is not one-sided. It would be enough, to inform the donators about a disconnect between the organization, they are supporting, and the editors, that build all the content, and the donations will decrease. So it is in both parties interest, that there is not such a disconnect: The Foundation will earn enough money to produce good software for editors and readers, and the editors can work happily with tools, that are fulfilling their urgent needs (which are quite a lot). --Magiers (talk) 16:35, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to note that the Wikimedia Foundation's disrespect for community consensus together with the introduction of an exclusive right to overrule local elected administrators in the influential German blog netzpolitik.org has been compared to the authoritarian thought of Carl Schmitt who once said that only he is souvereign that decides on the state of emergency. I also hold that this was a reactionary move by the Foundation that does not fit into a world where people increasingly claim the right to rule themselves, not to be ruled by someone somewhere from "above" without democratic legitimation. I agree to most of my fellow editors that the WMF exists for the sole purpose of assisting the editors and providing a platform we can work on. We are Wikipedia. It has often been said by Wikimedia officials that this is a movement. It is now up to them to make this happen, as a movement is always ruled from its base, or else it moves on to another framework that better serves its purpose. This dispute is not about software, but about self-determination.--Aschmidt (talk) 16:14, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"We are Wikipedia"? No. Wikipedia is a stool that stands on three legs: (1) the editors, who provide the content; (2) the WMF, who provide the software and servers; (3) the readers, who provide money, motivation, and new editors. All of those legs need to be solid in order for Wikipedia to stand, and all of them need to be balanced. Looie496 (talk) 19:41, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you, Looie496. Referred to the first two legs, I'm confident that the CE(P) team is able to improve the situation. It's a challenge though, as mentioned in the news article. --Patkenel (talk) 20:50, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I was struck by one bit of dialogue on Wales' talk page (my emphases):

Another journalist who is dead wrong (according to Jimbo/WMF) [1] I'm sure. And another: "The Foundation has a miserable cost/benefit ratio and for years now has spent millions on software development without producing anything that actually works. The feeling is that the whole operation is held together with the goodwill of its volunteers and the more stupid Foundation managers are seriously hacking them off." JMP EAX (talk) 09:26, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Other than the extreme nature of the comment ("without producing ANYTHING" is too strong) why do you think I would disagree with that? This is precisely the point of the new CEO and new direction - to radically improve the software development process. That statement, while too strong, is indeed an accurate depiction of what has gone wrong. I've been frustrated as well about the endless controversies about the rollout of inadequate software not developed with sufficient community consultation and without proper incremental rollout to catch showstopping bugs.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:43, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

If we're looking for reasons for the current situation, this is where most of them are to be found. And there is as yet little indication that things will really be any different with the elephant in the room, Flow. Andreas JN 466 21:07, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]